Men! Why is it so difficult for them?

[shandybass]

I'm wondering why it is it's so difficult for dh to support me? He says he just doesn't know what to say and that whatever he does say is wrong.

He has just been on a week's lads holiday while I was at home looking after dcs and going through a miscarriage. We both agreed on him still going on his holiday and I know he would have cancelled it if I'd asked him. When he came back I had been bottling things up and am not in a good way. He's gone back to normal mode. I tried to tell him last night how I feel and that I would really like him to treat me a bit and make it up to me a little for being away and give me a bit of breathing space to grieve and heal. To which he got upset and said he doesn't know what to say to me, that he doesn't have it in him. I told him just to try a bit.

Anyway today he came home from work and said he'd booked cinema tickets for two, I could come if I wanted but it was a racing lads film. I got upset having thought it was for us and he got in a rage and said I was over reacting as this is in two weeks time and I've been to the cinema with the girls and he's been fine with it.

Where do I go with this next. Accept that that's how he is? Or I don't know. I know I am feeling low anyway and will get better with time.

I find it extremely disheartening that anyone would think that they should have to train their partner to pull their weight, or that men who do so without being told are mindreading rarities

I ask again: Have you all really got DH's that just knew to pull their weight without needing to be told? Really? They all just know do they? You never had to say a word to them?

I hope you realise how lucky and gifted you all are then. I guess i chose badly.

Guess you did! Glad you've been able to fashion him to your requirements after all

No mine doesn't need me to tell him that houses get dirty or children need feeding

He can wipe his own bum too- must be the deluxe model

Seriously though, the selfishness, whether purposeful or not that so often is described on these threads is not normal behaviour for an adult

It may be common but it sure ain't normal

My experience with DH over (cough) years is that that men usually don't see all the little clues in people that women can (I often think that's what "women's intuition" really is), and expecting them to know what you are feeling is a route to frustration. I also think women are far more moody than men, and men just can't understand our mood swings. (I don't think we're wired the same, we're not even built the same FFS)

Somewhere I remember reading once that women like to talk about all their troubles, men like to go away somewhere and lick their wounds alone. So when you are troubled they assume you want to be left alone, it wouldn't occur to them to give you a hugs etc unless you asked clearly.

OP's DH seems like a far worse prick than usual though, as it sounds like she was pretty clear. I don't know if he is always such a prick, or is it very recent - it may be that they are both feeling the stress of a miscarriage?

I dunno about everyone else, but when I lost someone, dh knew when to give me a cuddle, when to let me cry, when to make stupid jokes that wouldn't make anyone else laugh, when to distract the kids from their 'mummy, mummy' demands and so on. Without prompting of any kind. And he's better at seeing stuff that needs doing around the house than I am. I sincerely hope that he isn't a rare specimen.

Meant to say "always" know what we're thinking in general, but a miscarriage is pretty damn obvious.

My DH is not much with the words, but he did put "Absoulute Cunt of a Day" at full blast on for me when I was particularly stressed the other day. To make me laugh. It worked.

He also knows his way around Tesco and is sole proprietor of the kitchen. And cleaning floors is his speciality.

Not much with the words but excellent on the actions at showing me he loves me. I prefer the actions, tbh, words are just...words. It's what they do, not what they say that is important, IMO.

OP, your husband is a man who seems unable to do either and for that I truly feel for you.

Garlic i'm going to show my Dh this thread - and point out that the majority of women claim they are married to saints and ask why he isn't one. And i'm going to tell him he's not normal. I'm sure he'll be as completely believing as I am of all these wonderful DH's out there that you're all pretending to have.

Meanwhile OP is still married to an abnormal arse and few of you have said anything remotely useful to helping her to get him to stop being like that except to compare him to your own perfect specimens and say that she shouldn't have to do anything to make him understand. He should just know.

Oh I like that one kiwi, you demand to know if we've got dhs that pull their weight without being 'trained', and when we reply that some of us do, we're filling the thread with talk of perfect specimens and are not being helpful! Haha. That'll teach me to answer your questions . And the conflation of behaving like a human being who actually listens and thinks about their partner with sainthood too.

Oh, but that's twaddle Kiwi. She's done a whole show-and-tell for him!

Personally I think that, once you've made sufficient effort to communicate and are being told you're unreasonable, oversensitive, etc, it's time to stop treating him like some sort of SN child and put things on the line. Selfish people sometimes shape up when they realise they've pushed it too far. If they don't - then, yes, I reckon it's worth asking yourself what you're gaining from all the sacrifice.

@Kiwi I'd never admit DH was "perfect" but he's a lot better than the OP's partner, but of course he needs a bit of corrective traetment every so often :o

The OP's partner sounds like a compleet arse, I just wonder if its recent or if he's always been like that.

Kiwinyc - "If someone doesn't have the skills to perceive when or if their partner is upset then they have to learn."

It might be desirable for someone to have a partner who perceives when or if they are upset, but no-one has to do anything. There is always a point of choice.

Very sorry for your loss, OP.

As a man, one thing in your story stood out to me: "I tried to tell him last night how I feel and that I would really like him to treat me a bit and make it up to me a little for being away and give me a bit of breathing space to grieve and heal."

That's two different things: pamper you, and give you space. If you're giving him two different messages ? understandably, given your grief and confusion and upset ? he might very well know what you really want. That said, there's plenty he obviously has handled badly.

kiwi, have you wondered why this thread is making you so uncomfortable ?

because not all women make excuses for shit men, and think it is their responsibility to "train" them to be a decent person

if you had to do that, then I am sorry

but pouring scorn or otherwise being incredulous at other people's marriages is actually making you look like maybe you did make some bad choices of your own

which must feel quite disquieting

The number of single men who live in genuine squalor, who don't eat, buy groceries or ever wash clothes is small

They know these things need doing- if they don't do them it is because they reckon it is someone else's job

I can't believe the mindset that men need to be trained, yuck, how offensive and patronising

And no I have never said my dh is perfect , he can be annoying and irritating at times , unlike me of course who is perfect .

But when he is a pain in the arse I blame him , I don't blame his genitals .

When i first came to this country i shared a house with 6 men in their v early twenties- if thrre is ever a time when anyone is likely to be a total slattern, it is at that age

Our house was decent enough, bathrooms and kitchen included

These men weren't saints, but whatever flaws they had did not extend to assuming i was their skivvy

Kiwi there are several things I disagree with in your post - though I do understand you are trying to offer a constructive way to deal with a real problem.

If your partner - or anyones partner - fails to show consideration for your feelings and isn't very good at spotting when you are upset - or is thoughtless, or doesnt help enough in the house - this is not because of a 'biological wiring'. It's because they as an individual have those flaws.

It's natural that when we start a relationship, we take a while to learn to read our partners feelings and learn what hurts them/ what matters to them/ the kind of support they need. It took me a while to learn what really upset my partner, and to react properly to it - that has NOTHING to do with being a man - it's just human. I dont agree with the idea that this is 'training'. Surely a better way to look at it is that a good person will learn how their partner ticks, because that is what love is?

THe point about this man - is that he is not trying or listening - and that is not because he is a man.

Men are not less sensitive or caring at all - I know lots of men and have never had this impression. It certainly is not true of my partner, who is very 'laddy' in other ways.

Do the men you are thinking of know when their boss is upset? Can they work out what their job entails, when they are told? Do they listen when they need to at work?

Presumably the OP and her husband know each other well - this is not a stranger asking him to understand what she wants and needs.

There are several issues in the OPs post - one is about a basic sense of actually caring how she feels and wanting to support her. She has gone through a major traumatic incident - and she made it clear she wanted more support. He has not sat down and said 'how can I help?' and he has not - even though she specifically asked - made an effort to organise a night out or care for her.

The disagreement I have with you is that I dont think the issue is him not 'knowing' - I think it's him actively not wanting to do things he doesn't really care about. Childcare - you dont need to be told that your children go to bed every night and someone has to do that work - he knows that. And if someone will only do something when being told every single freaking time - then they are not actively listening. Again, I bet he doesnt need to be told many times at work.

so - the issue is why, when he is behaving selfishly is it attributed to a male trait? My partner is not selfish and he is not insensitive -and because I love him I am constantly trying to work out how he feels and what matters to him - not because im female, because I care about him.

It is so so depressing to hear women let selfish men off the hook like this. I am sure him being a man has SOME bearing - in that he has a sense that this is 'womens' work - but believe me, most men do not think like that. And you have to separate out men actively using their idea of what 'mans' work is from a total inability to understand 'what' to do in terms of childcare and supporting their partner.

And lastly, on the point of taking her out, looking after her following a miscarriage - this has NOTHING to do with emotional intelligence. What is love, if it isnt a basic desire to make the person we care about happy? I know this is harsh, but unfortunately, if he isn't doing anything to TRY and make her happy - perhaps he simply doesnt care as much as she needs him to.

and by the way, my partner is nothing like the 'men' you describe - he is more sensitive and thoughtful than many women I know - and always trying to think of ways to make me happy or let me know he loves me. I dont say that to show off, because I think its pretty normal - I just can't belive you are dismissing the idea that many men are good caring partners.

It must be quite an eye opener to realise you are married to a selfish man with little empathy.

All the men I know well are decent , caring people who don't need to be told how to behave in a healthy and loving relationship.

No one would ever suggest that women need training in how to be a supportive and caring partner, why do some people think that men do?

My DH was as caring and supportive of me at 18 years old as he is now at 46, I haven't had to to train him - how insulting and infantalising.

You know, you're all right - I'm asking my husband for a divorce today. Theres clearly no point in trying to work with him to make my marriage better. Its better to rip apart the lives of my two children, rather than try to communicate my needs to him. I've never been able to read his mind, and he can't read mine. Not because he's a man, but because he's HUMAN (last time i looked.

Since OP's DH sounds even worse, i hope she does the same because theres clearly no hope for either of us.

1. It doesn't require mind-reading to think that your partner might be upset when they've just had a miscarriage.

1. Divorce doesn't 'rip apart the lives' of children, ffs. Lots of people are divorced, and their kids are fine, well-adjusted human beings. My parents were divorced, and I don't consider my life 'ripped apart' by this. You're actually being very offensive to people who have divorced or whose parents were divorced, you know.

Goodness, I've been in a bit of turmoil since catching up with all the posts last night and trying to digest them today and feeling pretty miserable.

My first reaction was to feel for kiwynic, I know you were only trying to help, but also to be a little reassured in the reaction and acknowledgement that dh shouldn't need to be guided this much even though I think maybe he actually does!

However things are as they are and I do need to alter what has become a pattern for us although the circumstances haven't usually been as extreme.

I do find it difficult to process as in real life everyone, as in family and close friends, thinks my dh is a good un, because he does do a fair amount of cooking and has been known to do the grocery shopping and clean the house on occasion and if I ask him. So as kiwynic says I'm not sure my dh is that unusual.

The other thing I find rings true is that the two blokes on this thread have said things that dh has said to me. That is prh who said that when his partner was mc that whatever he did do or not do he felt was wrong as in he couldn't do right. allfalldown said something similar in that I was giving different messages saying I needed to be pampered and have space to grieve. This is the sort of pedantic retort I would get fromy dh which drives me nuts. I had asked that I be treated and have some space which I had explained meant him doing more Childcare to give me a let up from the constant demands of young children and also that he put me first thinking what would be nice for me and yes that does change from day to day as sometimes at the moment I'm up for seeing people and other days I want to curl up in a ball and not do anything or see anyone. And I'm sorry that this is not more straightforward for you men but it's not that hard either as other posters have spelt out.

Also what rang true with me is what others have said about men being perceptive enough in their work situations and I have even used this as an argument to dh when he says he doesn't know what to say or do after I've told him for the umpteenth time. He did half smile and admit that he does complain about employees that he has to say the same thing to over and over and who do not use their initiative. Mind you he also says I'm too clever in my arguments and that he can never win so he doesn't bother defending himself.

The other thing I wanted to add to spring and crackfox's comments was that dh did not book the cinema tickets for me at all. He'd simply read about the film and fancied it knowing it was unlikely to be my thing but thinking he'd by 2 for him to have some company probably a mate to go. It was the thoughtlessness of his action and downright cheek that got me about it all and his excuse was that it was not for another two weeks. If it was me I would have thought now is probably not a good time to mention it and if I really wanted to go that I would see how things were by the time.

It doesn't make it much better does it, but he hadn't deliberately set out to annoy me but I hadn't been a consideration either.