Dh and the man cave.

[Ormirian]

He has a man-cave - well several really. Model railway, workshop, not to mention extra-curricular 'man-caves' of football and the pub! Which is fine by me. Even pre-DC we weren't in each other's pockets. But he seems to be resorting to them more often these days.

The other day were were having a slightly drunken chat so being a bit more 'straightforward' than we are usually. I said that he doesn't seem to enjoy being with our DC that much and he admitted that he didn't. He gets really ratty with them for no real reason - he struggles to see the good in them. He loves them, without a doubt and in a crisis and at important times he is very suppportive but the day-to-day stuff leaves him stressed and irritable. He was great with them when they were tiny, but less so when our 3rd baby came along. I can hardly remember a time we all spent together when he wasn't looking and sound fed up at least some of them. He denies it or gets really defensive when I mention this to him. It's not an easy subject to bring up.
I saw him make a real deliberate effort on Friday when we went out for a meal - and things were great - but he had to really try.

What he seems to want is the idea of children - he wants to know that he has them, just doesn't like the reality of them. Also he wants me to himself I think - he gets a little hint of green-eye when my littlest is too clingy to me. He is always trying to set us up as a unit in opposition to the children whereas I see us a one single unit.

His dad left when he was 4 and he has seen the impact that can have at first hand and I often wonder if that is what has stopped him leaving.

I don't like to think that this a man/woman thing - I have always beleived that men were just as good parents as women but come to think of it I don't know a single father who doesn't seem a little disillusioned with his children once they reach a certain age, and make comments along the lines of 'can't wait till they leave home'. Is that a territorial thing I wonder?

How do you deal with this? I am happy for him to carry on retreating when it gets too much but I'm not happy with the way he talks to them sometimes or his general attitude. Do I have to accept that his man-cave is going to be a big part of our lives until they leave home?

You describe it as a man-cave, but I would say they are hobbies. Which everyone is entitled to have.

As a child my dad had his workshop, garage, and used one of the spare rooms for a model railway set-up too.

How old are the children? Some people do find it difficult to interact with children when they are at certain stages and ages. My dad was a complete teenager-phobic person and left my mum to deal with my strops.

I also dont think its wrong that he wants to spend some child-free time with you too. You are his wife, not just the mother of his children. I have seen plenty of relationship flounder once the children become independant and the parents are left with nothing in common any more because the previous years have been consumed by child rearing and the couple have not had any time to themselves to keep their relationship alive.

They are 8, 12 and 14.

I would agree with you if he wasn't so irritable with the children when he is with them. As I said I don't have an issue with his hobbies - never have.

I am his wife but I am also a co-parent with him of our DC. We do spend time on our own - not enough maybe but that's just one of those things.

How many DC do you have & what ages?

I know of at least 1 person who found his kids a bit of a trial until they got old enough to join in with things he found fun.

I would suggest that he finds some activities to do together that he actually enjoys. Are the kids old enough to play with the model railway? Can he take them to football (watching or playing)? Even if it is only for short periods, it might be nice for him to introduce the DC to things he loves doing (I bet they'd love making something big and messy in the workshop)

I don't have any advice about the 'can't wait till they leave home' stuff, but I would guess he will find them more interesting and less irritating if he is teaching them to love things he loves.

antidote - he doesn't like them helping with the railway because they aren't careful enough. DS1 and DD aren't that interested anyway partly because he has never involved them in his stuff before. He has tried to get them involved in football (playing and watching) but they don't like it much.

He liked them better when they were small and annoying though

Sorry, X posted.

I had assumed from your description of him being irritable that the DC were much younger!

I find kids of those ages hard work to be honest. My own family are now in their 20's but my husband still gets irritable with them. He is just a grumpy bugger at times though, and they still love him all the same and his grouchiness is part of him that we all take the mickey out of.

Gah. I am officially the slowest typist.

squeaky - I think mine are too young to find it endearing or funny sadly.

Does he acknowledge that he is irritable? Does he want to change?

Perhaps putting a time limit on activities he does with them would be helpful so he can see there is an end, and knows he can retreat back to the cave afterwards. You could think of it as a sort of 'exposure treatment' or 'desensitization' that is used to treat people with phobias

I know that if there is something I dislike doing, if I can just get over the interest hump and get better at it then it becomes more fun. Like squeaky says, children of this age might be pretty hard work and require some new skills from him, which he may not have developed.

It sounds like he was able to 'make an effort' for the duration of a meal out, and it was nice. I am guessing the DC enjoyed it too.

Something well defined like a trip to the cinema, bowling, thrashing each other on the Wii for an hour, even doing the supermarket shop (bonding over how awful it is?) might work.

I am clutching at straws a bit, but I know my cousin (13) really enjoys it when her father makes the time to go canoeing with her for an hour.

Orm, it sounds like he doesn't have much of a "real" r'ship with them, in the sense of being connected, being interested in their lives, opinions, doings etc. It becomes circular, if he doesn't talk/interact, it gets more distant and they seem more irritating.

What Antidote said as a remedy.

Yes he does, and I don't know, are the answers to those questions I think. He can't see that he is being unfair and he can always find a reason for being cross.

He's OK with them one-to-one. But we don't have one child, we have 3.

When dh is having a not getting on phases with one of the dc, I always ask him what he wants. Does he want a shit r'shi p with them? Does he remember that he is the adult? And remind him that it is his responsibility to make the r'ship work.

Does he acknowledge r'ships take work? And that his with them aren't great?

hully - he doesn't want to talk about it. He gets instantly defensive. I think he just thinks about his dad leaving and all the shit that caused (and is still causing). It's so hard to tackle this. I know it's cowardly but I want DS1 to stand up for himself once - tell dad that he's being an arse! I've found DS1 in tears of rage before now over the way DH has spoken to one of them - I've told DH and he does get upset but it doesn't make much impact.

Sometimes it would be easier if he did leave TBH.

Snap (well almost); my DH was wonderful whilst the DCs were toddlers, pre-pubertal whereas I had little patience with that age group. I adore teenagers however ( I love that they can be 9yo one second and 39yo the next) my DH had no idea how to be with them and "disappeared" as often as possible. Now they are all adults they have really good relationships with each other and with both of us so I suppose it wasn't so bad that we couldn't parent jointly at different parts of their growing up (iyswim).

I do swym gotolder. I was less patient with the tiddlers even though I do miss that stage a little now. I find them more interesting though - I can talk to them and they have introduced me to so much that is new (to me). And I am proud of them (mostly).

I am sure all will be well. I think DH's ideal would be a longer-distance but still good relationship with them now. Which will come in time of course but I won't want them to go!

Do you allow "not wanting to talk about it"? I don't think people are allowed to do that, no matter how difficult and painful they have to talk about it if it exists and try and find a way forward. I would find that impossible to accept.

Sorry Orm, that isn't v helpful, I just don't see how you can try and improve things, come up with strategies, tactics etc if he won't engage. Can't you take his trains away until he talks?

I know from talking to most of my friends that alot of men have children because their wives want them. They are happy to get involved in their lives and provide for them but they also like their hobbies and the pub to escape them from time to time (every few nights in some of their cases!)

There is also an element of feeling its an 18 year job and once at that point its job done. Hence Women feeling devastated when children fly the nest/go to Uni and men feeling that they have got their lives and wife back!

Lol at train set confiscation.

I am not good at confrontation and tend to pussyfooting around issues that touch on fathering thanks to his arse ole father

Orm, it's not confrontation, it's gentle loving glittery conversation to try and find a way through the thorny thickets together for everyone's sake. If you can manage to have three dc together, you could try and manage that? I understand the father issue is difficult, but in effect he is absenting himself as much as his own father did...

If he has always had a man cave (love the term :) ) and you try and change it now I'd say thats not a battle worth fighting and will just lead to resentment.

Our experience is that our roles changed as the DC grew up, DH did lots of ferrying and sports coaching up to about 13, found squabbling early pubescent kids very trying, and is much better as they get older. He was also very busy at work at the time so just tired - is your DH busy at work?

I also think you need to take his hint that he wants a relationship just with you more seriously than you are, that seems very important to men.

hi orm..
your Dh sounds somewhat similar to my own dad ..(although Dad's man'cave was called 'the Den'.)
i think there is an element of parental expectation..he may have high hopes for his kids that didn't matter when they were small, but now...he can feel disappointed about what they aren't.
His sons are being not quite as great as he expected (no interest in football, not careful enough to do man-cave things) and his daughter has stopped being daddy's little girl.

His own dad was a shit, so he doesn't know how to get to grips with them as youngsters (rather than cuddly fun toddlers) and doesn't feel it is his 'job' to do so.
Maybe it is time to carefully suggest that his children need him, and he doesn't want to reproduce his fathers mistake ..he wants to be a better man?

reltionships with such men and their sons can be particularly hard to manage. Does he see your kids as 'soft' - because he had to be much tougher as a youngster?

am possibly totally shooting in the dark here.

I know that the times i have intervened on my childrens behalf with my own Dh, though rare, have helped...(eg. 'they are only X years old, you canot expect Y...)
sometimes its worth getting in to it, but pick your moment. As it is the situation is upsetting to your kids - but possibly also toyour DH. Do you think he is grouching bcause he feels guilty about getting angry?

edgar - I suspect you are spot on. He doesn't know how to do it. To be a father to older kids. Sometimes when he's really fed up with them, he tells me that they are 'spoilt' and 'ungrateful'. Which I don't agree with but even if they are we both made them that way - he found it easy to be indulgent when they were smaller, all of a sudden he's playing hardball. He thinks I let them get away with murder - but the thing is I haven't met anyone who doesn't tell me how lovely and polite our children are, they are doing well at school and they have lots of friends, so we must be doing something right. And I am the one they talk to, they tell their worries to, they hug and tell me how much they love me. I feel sad for him TBH.

"is your DH busy at work?" Yes, but so am I. I guess his job is more emotionally draining though. Funnily enough he works with secondary age kids with behavioural problems But I work longer hours.

I will try to find more time for us. I know that is what he wants but it's logistically difficult for a start! There are only so many hours in a day and more often than not when we've done sorting the children I've run out of energy! I could stop my running but that is the only thing I do for me and I would resent that massively.