Have I done the right thing? What do I do next? Am I abusive?

[westernshores]

I would really appreciate some perspectives/advice/anything really. Feeling incredibly lonely just now.

An appointment I'd arranged for today was rescheduled to 5.45pm - I called H (on his mobile), and asked if he could be home in time. He said he could.

He messaged me at 5.10 saying he was on his way. By 5.35 (when I had to leave), he wasn't back yet but I assumed he was on the tube as his phone went to voicemail. Our neighbour agreed to watch the DCs until he got back.

He called me a couple of minutes after I left, walking up the road (so 5 mins away from home). Fine. Except he was slurring. I asked if he was drunk and he said he wasn't drunk. I asked if he'd been drinking and he said he'd had a couple of drinks. I asked how many and he said three. I asked where he'd been and he said at work then when I scoffed said he'd been at some conference/meeting thing with vendors. He'd been there all day, I hadn't known it involved drinks.

This was really distressing to me because six months ago, when we were in another country seeing if we wanted to move there for H's work, he went AWOL after work. We had plans to meet somewhere and he didn't show up. He turned up at the hotel hours later, drunk off his face, having made no effort to contact me. He said I was being ridiculous and hysterical (I was in bits, his behaviour while drunk has been an ongoing issue and I'd thought he might've been hurt somehow). We talked a lot during the trip and I left the country telling him that I was considering ending the marriage over this behaviour- it affects his reputation at work as well - and that we needed to have some serious discussions on his return. He came back a week later and hasn't gotten pathetically drunk since. But we have talked about his drinking often - he's always defensive/offensive. These (unacceptable IMO), episodes are infrequent but always similar.

Anyway, didn't want to dripfeed but don't want this to be a huge essay either. I was concerned enough about how he sounded on the phone (having arrived at my appointment), to message him insisting he see a doctor on Monday as three drinks shouldn't make him slur and forgetful and perhaps there was an issue there (there's blood sugar issues in the family). He didn't reply.

I called him from my appointment as it was winding up, at 6.45pm (so an hour later), he sounded much more 'normal'. I suggested he bring the DCs to where I was - high street/park - and we get some dinner and enjoy the sunshine. He said that was a great idea and they'd set off directly and see me soon.

I called 15 mins later and his phone went straight to voicemail. Called again and again and again. Thought he might've run out of battery so went across the road to the park. Looked for the DCs and H. Walked to the playground. Walked to the restaurant we'd been discussing eating at. Was calling H constantly. Went back to the place I'd had my appointment in case he'd come by, nothing. Was 7.40pm at this point. Finally called the landline and H answered.

He had no memory of our conversation at all. I walked home and he told me (on the phone), that he'd had five drinks not three. I asked him where he'd thought I was all this time and he said he hadn't really thought about it. He said he was "checking his mobile right now" and there were no messages or missed calls from me.

I got back and put the DCs to bed - it was after 8. H said he'd given them sandwiches for dinner. I was really upset - told H that I'd told him last time that it had to be the last time and he'd said it would be and his choices were that he stopped drinking altogether while we had counselling or we ended the marriage.

He said "are you going to do some housework, then?" I repeated what I'd said and he said "I'll give up drinking if you do some housework".

No real point relating the rest of the conversation as he was drunk, slurring and obnoxious. Said I was being ridiculous, that five drinks wasn't that much more than three, I asked why, if three and five drinks were the same, he'd lied. He just sneered. I said "you're so drunk you've forgotton a conversation, how can that be acceptable?" and he said the conversation about meeting up etc had never happened. I showed him the call record on my mobile and he said "well I don't remember it so I don't think I happened".

At this point I just wanted him gone so I gave him the keys to his mother's place down the road (she's away), and sent him off. He said he'd lost the car keys and his wallet.

Went to check on the DCs and they said they were hungry. Checked the kitchen and no evidence of sandwiches at all (we had a new loaf today, it was still unopened). Called H at his mother's and he admitted he "probably hadn't" fed them.

I have no idea what to do. I was supposed to be out tonight but have obviously cancelled.

We're supposed to be moving abroad at the end of the year but - I have little enough support structure here as it is.

I don't know what to do. Make him come to counselling? He really doesn't understand that I am upset about the lying (and him being so off his face he forgot me and didn't feed the DCs, but it's more that he won't admit that's unacceptable).

How he is while drunk has been commented on by his colleagues and friends. It was funny/normal/unremarkable years and years ago - drinking until puking, staying out til 4am, he's pissed himself in the past - he and I have been together 15 years - but he's not grown out of it.

I think he's pathetic and I am hating him right now, but maybe I'm being melodramatic.

Actually I think this is to do with defiance. From what he says when he's on these benders and the way he reacts when I get distressed by the way he's behaving while drunk, it seems there's a sizable chunk of "fuck you, you don't get to tell me what to do", and... possibly fear that he's being controlled or 'under the thumb'. That's something I'm getting from years of occasional comments but I think there's something in it.

That also ties in with his teenage lying last night. His own parents (MIL, SFIL), were very permissive so I'm not sure what he's kicking against. In the past he's brought up how he feels our relationship differs from those of his peers so maybe he's getting it from there.

I don't want this thread to turn into you all getting cross with me for 'defending' him/not doing what you think I should/not 'admitting' what you think I need to/etc. I 100% appreciate and value every comment. Some of them truly don't apply but you don't know me, just what I've written, and I know you are looking out for me and the DCs based on your own experiences.

He regularly 'sounds' drunk after very little alcohol - when what he's drunk is 100% verifiable. He has NEVER forgotton a phone conversation or anything like that before. And strangely when we had the conversation he 'forgot' he sounded normal - not slurring or vague.

Anyway. He turned up back at the house at 8am while I was making the DCs breakfast. I didn't sleep at all last night, just couldn't. H took the DCs out to the playground, they're on their way back now.

We had a brief conversation and he mentioned driving - I said "but you left your keys at work", and he said "no, they're in my pocket".

I'm outraged by this whole situation. Either the five drinks thing was bullshit, in which case that's another nail in the coffin because lying is completely unacceptable, or it turns out he has some kind of condition which is making him so 'drunk' so fast and that's its own can of worms because I truly don't think he is going to stop drinking at work events or drink in a more careful manner.

For a long time (and he wasn't so bad - he'd be drunk but not NASTY drunk, bumbling and useless, it's just recently he's started being spiteful and accusatory), him coming back from work jollies/parties/etc off his face - and it's never been more than 2/3 times a year - was okay. His workmates did it, I used to drink more too, I'd just roll him onto the sofa.

Since the DCs things have changed. My reaction has changed which in turn has given him the excuse to be a cock.

living abroad is not happening (unless he has a complete road to damascus moment and TBH I can't see that happening). He can go by himself, in fact that wouldn't be the worst thing in the world would it? Might ease the transition for the DCs? Or is that a shit idea?

Please be gentle, I am sitting here on a lovely sunny day with my family home all around me and it looks like my marriage is breaking up and no matter how sure I am that I'm right to be doing this, it's hard to contemplate.

(I don't think he's an addict or helpless in the face of alcohol, basically. He doesn't drink generally, doesn't make 'excuses' to drink, is perfectly capable of having just one glass of wine with dinner etc.

The times he's been a horrible pathetic idiot have been:

• at a free-bar wedding (he was slurring, I told him to slow down, he got really obnoxious - this was May 2009 and actually is the first time I can remember this spiteful defiant attitude).

• almost every work xmas/summer/client-subbed jolly (again, he used to come home legless but benign/apologetic).

• 'drinks after work' at a bar I was later told was notorious for serving triple measures. His boss said this was a "rite of passage".

I think his drinking is a choice. He chooses to drink and he chooses to drink to excess and the more he drinks the more defiant he gets. Now he would say this is because I 'suddenly' started making an issue out of his drinking but I am not going to see him as a victim in any of this).

Op I could never understNd why my ex was so drunk on so little. The answer was that he was drinking way more than he admitted to. He'd down a load of shots at the bar whilst he was buying the drinks. He'd drink a bottle of wine whilst cooking.

Whilst you tell him off for the episodes, you then enable him to blame you for them and become defiant. You become part if the drinking cycle. Detach yourself. Just once don't react the way you would normally and see what happens. Make him take responsibility.

My ex was so drunk before ds1's christening that he nearly didn't attend. I got on with it.

Hmmm, well, we've had a chat. He has surprised me by being contrite. He said he was "acting like X" (a teenager we know who lies even when it's obvious), that he'd read my email and he agreed etc.

He said he did have five drinks but drank them very quickly on an empty stomach. I asked why he had five drinks and he said "it's what other people were doing". I started objecting and he said "I know, why does that mean I should do the same", I said "especially as you get drunk quickly". The people he was with (and keeping up with), yesterday are six-foot-plus ex-rugby player types. What a twat to try to keep up with them. I've made it clear that the lying is the main thing.

dollytwat, my H only drinks in social situations, and only like this when he's with work people (moron).

Anyway, he's contrite rather than accusatory and I am hammering that advantage home and insisting on the action outlined above. Which I think is taking him aback slightly. But he's not objecting.

He's offering to make me lunch now.

Wanker wanker wanker.

Dear westernshores I don't know where you live but assume you live in a country where it's not only ok to get smashed out of your brain occasionally, but is an affirmation of manhood. Please re-read what madonnaisawhore wrote in her moving post. You are putting your kids at huge physical and mental risk here. It sounds like you're going through some life-changing decisions and i wish you all the luck and strength in the world especially as you and dh have almost grown up together. It's so hard when fear and love and bound together.

I remember being driven by my drunk dad fast down the wrong side of a main road. He thought it was funny and laughed at my fear. I must have been terrified at the time but this sort of thing inured me to danger so lost all determination of what was dangerous or not. He would deny it happened later like all the other things. As my mum colluded to protect us, she would also deny it had happened or play it down so that us children were the neurotic, humourless or lying ones. It took me half a lifetime to learn to believe myself. That was one incident among HUNDREDS every year. Mostly I don't remember him being drunk that was the worst thing. Alcoholism IS NOT to do with how often you drink, but WHY. And, as madonnaisawhore also says, it is furtive. He will do anything to stop you knowing the truth. Drinking to excess is an illness and if someone has a mental illness you cannot talk logically with them. Waste of time. And you're NOT HELPING HIM.

Maybe if his parents were so permissive, he had very few boundaries and had no one to tell him when to stop. This can be the flip side of overly disciplinarian parents.

Good on you for taking on board what people are saying. If it stings and annoys you but rings true , listen to it.

I have taken off my wedding ring (not mentioned it to H and he won't notice), and won't be putting it back on until such time as this is sorted out. It'll remind me what's at stake.

I am taking EVERY POST and opinion on board. My own childhood was abusive and there is no way my DCs are living with a father who acts like H did. One way or another it's the last time he's gotten drunk like that.

Just read your most recent post. Contrite is one of the big words from our childhood. Dad did contrite like nobody's business. Till the next time. Once as an adult I called him on playing Happy Families and he was furious.

What's making me sore about some posts is that I have worked SO HARD to shield the DCs from the effects of my own upbringing (not always perfectly). It has always been me who was the 'risky' parent - the volatile one, the socially anxious one, the PND one. I chose H carefully and IN MANY WAYS he is a fantastic parent and a great counterpart to me.

But it's clear that however good he might be, he's not good enough and this failing is major. However many city boy wankers do the same and however many suburban SAHMs put up with it. It is not good enough for my DCs.

I have a hard time believing I am what's best for the DCs (as in, me as a single parent) - that's engrained from my abusive parents. But I am believing it now, and it's very affirming, but absolutely terrifying.

He lied about feeding them. That means this is the end. I'll give him a chance, one, to build a new future with us. But this is the end and if he doesn't comply with what I'm asking (which is reasonable), then he's showing he is choosing drink/acting like a twat/'fitting in' over his children.

And my DCs are not having a father like that.

But it's hard because I really thought I'd chosen better.

curtaincall, he has NEVER been contrite before. It has always been me overreacting, him doing normal things, his mates don't have wives who do this, what about the time I got so drunk I fell asleep behind a sofa at a club and he looked for me for hours etc etc etc.

This is the first time EVER he has taken responsibility off his own bat and come home apologetic. I am not taking it to heart but it's been a surprise to me. I am using his contrition to get him to agree to the next steps. It's not enough in itself.

Op this is not your fault, but whilst you still pick up the pieces for Jim you enable him to continue.

My ex only drank in social situations too. He went to increasingly more and more. It got worse over years.

It went in cycles, the time between them got shorter. He would be sorry, he would be a model husband, then for no reason he'd go out and not return. Usually on a bank holiday. I always had a back up plan. I noticed that he would engineer arguments so he could flounce.

*for him
Not Jim
Who's Jim!

I think you are responding brilliantly. I am in awe of your courage. You are doing absolutely the right thing by yourself, your marriage and especially your children. Well done, you should be proud.

western, I am a problem drinker who has only recently started on the road to recovery. My pattern of drinking was very different to your H's, in that it was more chronic (every day) than acute (binge drinking). I've started doing some reading on the subject and am very keen to avoid a 'holier than thou' attitude either with friends or on MN as if I was miraculously an expert in recovery after a week and a half :)

I would recommend this book particularly if you're in the UK. It highlights the fact that you don't have to drink every day to be an alcoholic. The fact it's being commented on by colleagues is a huge red flag (mine never was, in fact my colleagues/friends are expressing huge surprise now that I've started to 'come out' to them - classic comment "well you did always have a large glass of wine in the pub, not a small one" - yeah, the difference between 175 ml and 250 ml is what's caused my liver to go AWOL! Not!).

I would definitely get him to the GP, and get his liver function tests done. This could be a serious eye-opener, as it was for me (although to be honest I felt like death even before I got the results back - and knew why).

Hopefully Al-anon will be very useful to you. Even if he is willing now to put in the work to recover from this (and I think it is an addiction, even though he only does it - that you know of - in social circumstances) I can't think a major upheaval like an international move is wise for either of you within the next year.

One thing I'm concerned about, once I'm well enough to go back to work and rejoin 'normal life', is to balance the need for the people around me to know my situation and why I'm not drinking, coupled with a desire not to feel 'policed' by either them or my parents, for example. It is MUCH more likely I will relapse if someone says 'you can't have a drink' than if they more gently say 'why don't you wait a few minutes and think it over first?'. I want to be able to go to the pub with my mates. I don't want to drink. I fully accept that I have a problem, it's my problem, and I've started taking the steps to be open about that with the people around me. (With one notable exception, my very aged grandparents who are really too ill to deal with the truth, my mum agrees this is the right course of action).

I hope that contrite means something but I fear that if he will not admit to having a problem, it's just a way of trying to placate you. This time.

Best of luck to you - I have found being open about my problem very liberating, and I wouldn't want anyone - either myself or my family - to be going through this without being able to talk about it. Don't hide things for his benefit, it won't help him, or you.

Something said to him like what? Something that made him feel he had to prove his worth as a hard-drinking not-under-the-thumb-er? Nah - it was a vendor showcase thing so they were being treated to a free bar after sitting through presentations. He could've left anytime after about 4pm and was in work very early for it. Generally he tends to be able to work flexibly (from home etc).

Do you think you recognise me?? I don't think I've posted here before but maybe. I don't know if drinking is more/less tolerated in the other country - certainly there are just as many city boy types doing it, that's what happened last time. If he got fired we'd all come back to the UK but we'd want to anyway, surely.

Tonight is shit. Sitting next to each other not really talking. Just want tomorrow to be over so it can be monday and we can see the GP.

(He has no 'shame' about doing stuff for the DCs, it's being 'told what to do' by me which starts off his infantile posturing).

You see, that's why I think you may have problems other than just his drinking, within your relationship. This prick sounds both resentful and entitled - he is casting you as 'er indoors, the ball and chain, and yet an unsatisfcatory servant that he can blame for his woes - and it's maybe got something to do with the fact that you are more content than you previously were and therefore less likely to let him be the boss of the household unquestionsingly.

Oh we have lots of other issues, and yes.

Despite his permissive and unconventional upbringing (brought up almost communally by women, his mother is the breadwinner and very feminist), he seems to have an idea from somewhere that if I am being The Wife I should be doing it 'properly'. I think what he said about housework might have a bearing - that I'm not allowed to question his behaviour if I'm not filling 'my' role.

He constantly harks back to the amount of caring for DC1 he did when I had PND. It was loads. But I am not really grateful, because I was holding on to sanity by the bearest thread and was pregnant again and struggling with that and I'm not sure I should be grateful that he 'took over' because isn't that what anyone would've done?

He is an entitled cock and I wish I could get to the bottom of what he REALLY thinks - is it about women? Is it about me? Is it about him and if so, what aspect of him?

So much of what he says is almost 'playing a role' - he always talks about how people he knows conduct their relationships, and how much I 'should' be contributing (he means housework/childcare/wifework), that he 'contributes' so much more. He just ranted for ten minutes about how I only tidy up when someone's coming round and leave things on the floor.

I am looking forward to our counselling appointment.

I had a bit of a fond imagine in the shower about him going abroad and us staying here (well, not here-here, we'd have to move). I think I could cope, actually.

(He's right that I am a rubbish housewife - but we've been together 15 years and I've always been this way).

Your DH is drinking much more than he admits to. The fact that he is so defensive about it proves that he has a real problem. The most frightening part is that if he can forget your call and forget to feed the children, what else could happen in these vacant moments? Are the children safe in his sole custody? Having divorced a man very like yours, I'm afraid that you probably don't know the half of it. The bottom line is that if he can't or won't sort himself out you must abort the move abroad. There are groups for the partners of drinkers that will give you support and show you how to deal with it. Oh and by the way, don't blame yourself, that's what he would like you to do...it takes the heat off him. Good luck

western - I could be way off the mark here but I am going to speculate a little about what I see may be going on here.

You say his mum was the breadwinner and yet he expects a clean house and has low self esteem ( yes - anyone who uses drink or any substance in this way has terribly low self esteem) Is it possible that he has been totally intimidated by a supermum who did everything - successful job and ran the house like clockwork and he could never be quite up to her standards? ( and neither could you?) Does his mum drink a lot?

Secondly, what used to be acceptable for you and most people when you had kids is certainly not acceptable now. Some men really struggle with that. And constant "nagging" as they put it only makes them more infantile. The key is to make them understand what is at stake here. You're considering a life without him ffs - does he really understand that?

Unfortunately it is not as simple as staying with him or leaving him. There is a whole lot else in between - and it's mostly painful but it does lead to a better life - whether things work out with him or not.

In my experience, a mediator is the best way to try and talk about the issues at stake so you both have a voice and don't feel "put down". There are probably a million reasons in his head why he feels "controlled" and he needs a platform to release them. I would also advise a male relationship counseller so it doesn't feel like all the women are ganging up on him.

PS - I wouldn't pin too many hopes on the GP appointment tomorrow. I think there is a limit to what they can achieve in this situation

Good luck x

Hi Guys.

GPs appointment made for this evening - I brought it up last night and he acted all "oh well, tomorrow might not be any good, I don't think it's urgent, it's not like a doctor is going to say anything helpful" - I said it fucking well was urgent after the way he behaved and that whether it was ultimately useful or not he was going to demonstrate to me that he was taking my ultimatum seriously.

I think that probably is the only point - let's say the GP says anything other than "drink a bit less then", and does blood tests, and let's say they show something up - do I think H would take that on board and limit his intake on these work nights out?

Probably not, because the issue is 'fitting in' (even though he's created the idea of what he's fitting in with).

inverted his family situation was actually very different and his mother is/was far from a supermum - he was raised in very insecure surroundings, baliffs knocking etc, in a communal scenario - BUT what you say about self-esteem rings really true.

I can't believe I haven't thought about it before because I know that when I used to drink to excess it was always out of social anxiety/nerves. I think H might be playing a role when he does this - he is dumb enough to believe that his workmates are all hard-partying city boys with no consequences (despite the fact that many are divorced or commute in such a way that they only see their families on the weekend), and that they are judging him for not being.

It's all in his head. Everything he says about being under the thumb/doing too much at home/I'm not doing enough/etc is about some image of family life which bears no relation to reality. Fair enough he didn't have much of a family life while growing up but he's created this fiction based on how much 'cooler' (bad word but closest I can think of), his colleagues are than him.

He has a reputation at work for being really clever, almost a miracle-worker (hence this secondment), but 'not suffering fools gladly' and being a difficult boss. His colleagues have often said to me at work events "oh it's amazing seeing how he is with you/the DCs as he's so abrupt and to the point at work".

It's a bit fucking sad that he hasn't bothered to create his OWN image of what family should be like. Maybe - if he ever does realise - seeing that he is on the brink of losing his family might shake him out of that?

I've been thinking too about what I want to achieve from this. He used to drink far more but be far less horrible. His attitude - the lying, the sneering - is the thing which is killing the relationship. It seems to happen when he knows he's fucked up but is angry rather than contrite for having it pointed out and that is NEW (not brand new, but last couple of years rather than previous 13).

It all speaks of contempt towards me and what I 'do'. If I am reduced in his mind to an inadequate housewife while he's the long-suffering hero who does everything and that's the attitude he's taking to these binges, then that's what needs focusing on.

The infrequency of these binges might have disguised the level of this contempt but it must be there or he wouldn't've behaved like this.

So what he did the other night - I need to use it as leverage. My being upset hasn't been enough for him to change and he has responded well (so far), to my saying him being in that state while in charge of the DCs is unacceptable in a completely black and white way.

I'm going to make an appointment with a counsellor for this week if I can. Should I go for Relate or a general couples/relationship counsellor? I am slighty concerned about agendas etc.

Something's changed in how he views women, in the past couple of years, perhaps. Did something happen around two years ago with his mother or another close female relative? Because I think you're right, what is at the root of all this is his attitude towards the role he thinks you should play - and the one he thinks he should play.
That still doesn;t mean you have to put up with this behaviour if he doesn't start making an effort to change, though. but an explanation is often helpful.

It's how he views me which has changed. He doesn't really have an opinion on other women or even women's roles. I, specifically, am not up to scratch.

I found a (male), relationship counsellor who could see us on Thursday and called him to see if his mother would babysit - he said "I thought we decided there was no point doing counselling".

WTF. Horrible arse.