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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Have I done the right thing? What do I do next? Am I abusive?

98 replies

westernshores · 03/06/2011 21:45

I would really appreciate some perspectives/advice/anything really. Feeling incredibly lonely just now.

An appointment I'd arranged for today was rescheduled to 5.45pm - I called H (on his mobile), and asked if he could be home in time. He said he could.

He messaged me at 5.10 saying he was on his way. By 5.35 (when I had to leave), he wasn't back yet but I assumed he was on the tube as his phone went to voicemail. Our neighbour agreed to watch the DCs until he got back.

He called me a couple of minutes after I left, walking up the road (so 5 mins away from home). Fine. Except he was slurring. I asked if he was drunk and he said he wasn't drunk. I asked if he'd been drinking and he said he'd had a couple of drinks. I asked how many and he said three. I asked where he'd been and he said at work then when I scoffed said he'd been at some conference/meeting thing with vendors. He'd been there all day, I hadn't known it involved drinks.

This was really distressing to me because six months ago, when we were in another country seeing if we wanted to move there for H's work, he went AWOL after work. We had plans to meet somewhere and he didn't show up. He turned up at the hotel hours later, drunk off his face, having made no effort to contact me. He said I was being ridiculous and hysterical (I was in bits, his behaviour while drunk has been an ongoing issue and I'd thought he might've been hurt somehow). We talked a lot during the trip and I left the country telling him that I was considering ending the marriage over this behaviour- it affects his reputation at work as well - and that we needed to have some serious discussions on his return. He came back a week later and hasn't gotten pathetically drunk since. But we have talked about his drinking often - he's always defensive/offensive. These (unacceptable IMO), episodes are infrequent but always similar.

Anyway, didn't want to dripfeed but don't want this to be a huge essay either. I was concerned enough about how he sounded on the phone (having arrived at my appointment), to message him insisting he see a doctor on Monday as three drinks shouldn't make him slur and forgetful and perhaps there was an issue there (there's blood sugar issues in the family). He didn't reply.

I called him from my appointment as it was winding up, at 6.45pm (so an hour later), he sounded much more 'normal'. I suggested he bring the DCs to where I was - high street/park - and we get some dinner and enjoy the sunshine. He said that was a great idea and they'd set off directly and see me soon.

I called 15 mins later and his phone went straight to voicemail. Called again and again and again. Thought he might've run out of battery so went across the road to the park. Looked for the DCs and H. Walked to the playground. Walked to the restaurant we'd been discussing eating at. Was calling H constantly. Went back to the place I'd had my appointment in case he'd come by, nothing. Was 7.40pm at this point. Finally called the landline and H answered.

He had no memory of our conversation at all. I walked home and he told me (on the phone), that he'd had five drinks not three. I asked him where he'd thought I was all this time and he said he hadn't really thought about it. He said he was "checking his mobile right now" and there were no messages or missed calls from me.

I got back and put the DCs to bed - it was after 8. H said he'd given them sandwiches for dinner. I was really upset - told H that I'd told him last time that it had to be the last time and he'd said it would be and his choices were that he stopped drinking altogether while we had counselling or we ended the marriage.

He said "are you going to do some housework, then?" I repeated what I'd said and he said "I'll give up drinking if you do some housework".

No real point relating the rest of the conversation as he was drunk, slurring and obnoxious. Said I was being ridiculous, that five drinks wasn't that much more than three, I asked why, if three and five drinks were the same, he'd lied. He just sneered. I said "you're so drunk you've forgotton a conversation, how can that be acceptable?" and he said the conversation about meeting up etc had never happened. I showed him the call record on my mobile and he said "well I don't remember it so I don't think I happened".

At this point I just wanted him gone so I gave him the keys to his mother's place down the road (she's away), and sent him off. He said he'd lost the car keys and his wallet.

Went to check on the DCs and they said they were hungry. Checked the kitchen and no evidence of sandwiches at all (we had a new loaf today, it was still unopened). Called H at his mother's and he admitted he "probably hadn't" fed them.

I have no idea what to do. I was supposed to be out tonight but have obviously cancelled.

We're supposed to be moving abroad at the end of the year but - I have little enough support structure here as it is.

I don't know what to do. Make him come to counselling? He really doesn't understand that I am upset about the lying (and him being so off his face he forgot me and didn't feed the DCs, but it's more that he won't admit that's unacceptable).

How he is while drunk has been commented on by his colleagues and friends. It was funny/normal/unremarkable years and years ago - drinking until puking, staying out til 4am, he's pissed himself in the past - he and I have been together 15 years - but he's not grown out of it.

I think he's pathetic and I am hating him right now, but maybe I'm being melodramatic.

OP posts:
invertedsnobbery · 03/06/2011 22:21

I feel really sorry for you and you shouldn't be beating yourself up about something that happened after an afternoon of provocation....you are human after all.

He has a drink problem - it is a problem because it is not only affecting your relationship but also how he is caring for his children. It is very poor not to feed them and I would be drawing blood if this happened to my kids so yuo sound as if you have been fairly restrained.

I don't know if there is any flexibility in your plans to move but i would really advise against it...you need stability at the moment. He needs to accept his drinking is a problem - the drink aware website is a good starting point. I also agree with you making contact with al-anon.

Ultimately you have to decide what is best for you and your kids if he remains in denial - staying in this kind of lifestyle or leaving him. It's not easy but there is help out there to help you work thru the issues.

Good luck x

westernshores · 03/06/2011 22:24

Yes. Yes. Yes. I am nodding here.

And previously, it's been him coming home (or not), off his face in the early hours while I'm with the DCs or when they have been with the GPs or similar. I would never have gone to my appointment if I'd seen the state he was in. And if we hadn't made the plans to meet at the park there's a chance I might've gone straight on to my evening plans.

He was in sole charge of the DCs while so drunk he forgot an entire phone conversation and either didn't feed them at all or chucked a piece of bread at them. That steps it up a gear I think.

I am, frankly, scared of starting down this road as it's hard to imagine it ending somewhere I'll be happy with but I need to start down the fucking road because this is not acceptable.

OP posts:
ThatVikRinA22 · 03/06/2011 22:24

the most massive issue for me is that he told he you had given the children something to eat, and would have left them hungry if you hadnt sussed that he had lied. id be absolutely fucking livid at this one thing alone, never mind the rest of it.

i would not consider a move abroad with a man who did this. He cant be trusted.

invertedsnobbery · 03/06/2011 22:29

of course it's scary and really hard - change always is. But change can be so positive in the long term. If you find it hard, put your kids first. Think about what effects this type of exposure will have on them in the long term. They could be very emotionally scarred or even substance users themselves.

One way to achoeve a goal is to visualise the type of life you would like to have and take one step at a time to achieve it. You have it in you to succeed.

SpringchickenGoldBrass · 03/06/2011 22:31

Holy shit. Sorry love but you nedto throw him out. DO not move abroad with him, you will end up alone in a strange country with frightened DC and an abusive drunk in the house. Because he is an abusive drunk and he's going to get worse. Not feeding the children, calling you crazy when you quite reasonably pointed out that he was drunk in charge of the DC, complaining about housework - this can't get better, it's only going to get worse.
The only tiny consolation I can think of for you is that if other people have been comenting on his drinking, when you tell everyone that you have thrown him out for his drinking, you will be believed, and he won't be able to tell them that you are mad (TBH few people believe this sort of thing of women who have dumped inadequate men anyway, most people are well aware of when a man is a bully or a drunk).

Elliptic5 · 03/06/2011 22:34

He's an alcoholic - been there done that!
Get some help for yourself (al-anon) if he won't admit it. I didn't and suffered years of misery, and so did my kids. My OH suffered memory loss, then alcohol induced epileptic fits, liver damage and brain damage.
In the end I left and he died two years ago as he never stopped drinking

westernshores · 03/06/2011 22:47

He will say he's not an alcoholic as he doesn't drink all the time (in fact he drinks rarely), blah blah.

My plan of action so far is: GP Monday (and I am coming), counselling, al-anon for me (I think that could be very helpful).

I know he will say I am overreacting and being stupid.

I know this is probably too mild a reaction for some people but I want to give him a chance to see I am serious (I have told him many times but never done anything), and to save the relationship. Then I will know I tried.

I will make it clear the move abroad is off the table (at least a move which involves the DCs and I), for the forseeable. We've spent the week filling out visa paperwork and getting excited though. God I hate him!

OP posts:
LoopyLoopsBettyBoops · 03/06/2011 23:02

Good plan. Stick to it.

Good luck and strength be with you. :)

Omigawd · 03/06/2011 23:38

Oh Lord, I am so sorry, this is just terrible. I'd say exactly the same as Loopyloops said. He may also be quite ill too (memory loss etc), so GP visit is v important so go with him.

And I'd cut yourself some slack re throwing phones.

westernshores · 03/06/2011 23:59

I found his wallet under a sofa cushion just now, so that's something.

I am cutting myself slack re the phone-throwing, but he won't. If I do anything like that or shout or swear he instantly switches off because "you're being ridiculous".

I'm not sure what I should be asking the GP - are there conditions I should be asking about? I'll have a google.

Though if it turns out he has some sort of issue which is causing this extreme drunkenness I'm not sure he'll drink less or anything. He's so convinced of his own rightness.

OP posts:
curtaincall · 04/06/2011 00:33

This is not about rationalising what happens in your relationship OP. You were severely provoked in the phone-throwing incident and feel guilty that you may be an abuser. Sorry but you are contributing to abuse if you allow them to see how your DH behaves as normal behaviour. They will be damaged and possibly blame you as well as DH for not getting them away from this horrendous situation and will have a permanently twisted view of life. You are an enabler if you carry on allowing an alcoholic to have control over the lives of you and your dcs. Get out NOW. I was a child like yours. Get in touch with al anon and find out why you are putting up with this.

Oh, and don't go abroad with him.

VforViennetta · 04/06/2011 00:35

Oh blimey, really don't move abroad with him. Your life will be hell. He obviously has a drink problem, don't let him focus on your behaviour either. Agree with springchicken, I really hate that barefaced lying despite all the evidence, Dp does it too, although not over drink, he tries to rewrite my reality, even over silly things that don't matter. It's bollocks.

westernshores · 04/06/2011 01:15

curtaincall, I don't feel guilty about the phone-throwing, not at all. I feel stupid because I know that that kind of thing gives him an excuse to disregard what I am saying.

Thankyou for your comment - I do appreciate it and what you have said. It doesn't apply to our situation but please believe that it never will either. I'm not 'putting up' with it, it's only just happened. I've put up with similar behaviour which hasn't involved the DCs, but this is different and if he doesn't change then I will end the relationship.

Vfor I worry about what goes on in my H's head actually. "I don't remember it so it didn't happen/you have no right to be upset" - what the fuck is that about.

OP posts:
HansieMom · 04/06/2011 01:21

I wonder what your neighbor thought when he turned up drunk to collect the children. Poor kids too, with a drunken parent in charge.

westernshores · 04/06/2011 01:35

Yup, absolutely appalling and unacceptable. I have decided I will say something to our neighbour.

The DCs have seen us tipsy before - xmas etc - but never to the extent someone would have to be to not feed them/feed them a piece of bread for dinner. They seem pretty okay with everything - are of an age where a bowl of cereal at bedtime is novel and fun and we had a good time reading stories after H had gone - but it won't be happening again. Certainly I can't trust H to look after them without seeing him myself first.

I'm off to bed soon (will sleep with DCs). Am very sad just at the moment. He lied and lied and lied. Like a sulky teenager.

OP posts:
nomedoit · 04/06/2011 04:02

He sounds like a binge drinker. Don't move abroad with him. There are so many awful "what if's" that come to mind. What if one of your children had choked? Or he had passed out. It sounds as if he is drinking so that he is in blackout?

elastamum · 04/06/2011 09:06

Hi Western Shores, Hope you are feeling OK this morning. You sound remarkably together.

Stick to your guns on this, your H needs to face up to his problem if your relatonship has any chance of surviving. You might need to chuck him out for him to see you are serious, high risk, but not as high risk as letting your kids grow up with a drunk dad.

My drunk BF didnt drink all the time either and managed to hold down a good job. But when he started drinking he just couldnt stop. His dad was also an alchoholic, I really felt for his mum. good luck Smile

SpringchickenGoldBrass · 04/06/2011 09:33

You will need to chuck him out, I'm afraid. That may be enough to make him seek help, but it may well not. Some alcoholics never stop drinking. Others realise fairly swiftly that they need to stop, and do so. But what you have to understand is that no one else can make him stop until he chooses to do so. The fact that he is aggressive and blaming you for his disgusting, selfish irresponsible behaviour means that you needn't waste time feeling sorry for him. Put yourself and DC first, dump him and tell everyone it's because he's a drunk. Then if he does decide to sort himself out and puts some serious effort into making it up to you, then you can reconsider (but the minimum drink-free time would have to be a year).

madonnawhore · 04/06/2011 10:14

He is an alcoholic and no amount of counselling or anything else will make him sort his drinking out unless he accepts he has a problem.

As the child of an alcoholic mother I feel huge, huge sympathy for your DCs. Having an alcoholic parent is unimaginably dreadful and the biggest exercise in making you feel powerless and unloved that there is.

We all enabled my mum for years. First by colluding in her denial and refusing to believe the writing on the wall, then by molly coddling her and trying the sympathy route, then we just ignored her and let her get on with it because dad couldn't bear to leave her on her own we all lived with her alcoholism until it bled the joy out of all of us. Eventually she died.

I think we all should have taken a much tougher line with her and left her. Maybe then she would have seen what she stood to lose. I really regret not doing this, but if I'm honest, it was too hard for us to do. We were scared and lazy and it was easier to carry on the status quo and normalise increasingly destructive behaviour. It damaged us all in the end.

Arguing with a drunk person is pointless, they are irrational and there is no logic. It's not worth it. Alcoholics are also astoundingly manipulative and can turn any situation or conversation around so that you feel like the bad guy and they look like the innocent, reasonable one.

If I have one piece of advice for you it is to get your children away from the influence of alcoholism. It is so, so damaging. Let him hit rock bottom and realise he's lost everything. That's the best chance you can give him.

madonnawhore · 04/06/2011 10:17

And it makes no difference whether the DCs see your H actually take a drink or not. Alcoholics are so furtive and secretive, often they do a lot of their drinking in secret anyway.

It's the alcoholic's behaviour and attitude towards you that leaves the lasting scars.

Smum99 · 04/06/2011 10:39

Your H does have a problem so sensible involving the GP, it seems that he is having blackouts which are indicative of a problem and often caused by drinking very quickly. As a partner your response is to support him in getting help, making him aware of the issue but ultimately it is something it will be something that he has to own.

He may struggle with not drinking, if he works in a hard drinking culture he might struggle to accept that he 'can't keep' up with other colleagues.

I would involve his mother - often getting someone outside of our relationship to be aware of the issue might hep him face up to the problems.

LoopyLoopsBettyBoops · 04/06/2011 10:52

How are you feeling this morning OP?

livinginazoo · 04/06/2011 11:04

You need to listen to SGB she is talking sense here. Do not move abroad with him, the problem WILL follow you out there and the situation will get more complicated and messy.

The only new point I want to really make and I don't want to moddycoddle on this, from what you said in our OP you did know (or suspected) what state he was in when he was on his way home to look after the children, if you have lived with this for I assume from your post 15 years, you say yourself you asked him if he was drunk. Be truly honest with yourself. You know he was lying about how much he was drinking, he was unreliable and slurring his words. You might be suppressing those thoughts, but you need start being honest with yourself. You cannot ignore this sort of gut feeling and leave an alcoholic in charge of such young children. That is just not right, no matter how important your appointment. You saw yourself what happened, they were neglected and tbh in danger if he was not supervising them properly. He is not safe to have around the children in that state, on his own. To me, you were not abusive towards your husband (quite the opposite, his behaviour was abusive to you), you were frustrated and angry (not that your reaction had any point because of the state he was in, yet totally understandable). You did, however, contribute to the neglect and abuse of your children, you knew he had 3 pints. IMO if you can't drive a car because you've had too much to drink, you cannot look after young children (particularly if said person is known to normally get paralytic because he has a drink problem). And that statement assumes you really did not know, which I do not believe, from experience. I am sorry and do apologise to you for sounding harsh, but you seem to need a wake up call.

There is no point reasoning, confronting, believing a drunk when they have started drinking, they will an do lie to you. He did not have 3 or 5 pints. He had a lot more, from what you describe. He has real problems and needs help and you cannot make him do that. You cannot rant and rave at him, it will just justify his behaviour in his mind. The only thing you can do is to set down boundaries and make ultimatums that you are going to uphold, and maintain control of your own life and actions/inactions. What you are doing is enabling his behaviour and being codependent, even if it doesn't feel like it to you. You are in denial. A good book on codependecy is that title by Melodie Beattie. You should tell his mother and shout it from the roof tops, alcoholism thrives on secrecy. That won't change him but might change your thoughts on his destruction of your family.

livinginazoo · 04/06/2011 11:09

I do want to say again, sorry for sounding harsh. I am making assumptions based on the information provided, and reading through the lines a bit. I am not in anyway saying you are a bad mother, quite the opposite. Just that as other posters have said, alcoholics are manipulative and selfish, and you are unfortunately caught up in that horrible nightmare of a drama. You must have open eyes!

DollyTwat · 04/06/2011 12:00

Op you are rightly shocked by hus behavior and doing all the right things for you. You need to look after yourself. You cannot make him do anything. He won't stop until it's glaringly obvious to HIM he has a problem. So your efforts must go on yourself. If he ever goes to aa that us what he will be doing.

Something that may make this hideous journey a little easier for you is this: he isn't doing it to upset you, or piss you off. He's doing it because he can't help it. Once I realized that my ex was I'll and it wasnt a deliberate act to upset me I was able to stand back from it. I stopped having a go at him. I said I'd stand by him whilst he got sober, as a friend as he'd lost all of his, but not as his wife then we'd take stock.
Good luck op. I can't stress enough, look after YOURSELF and your dc

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