Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

HOW WOULD YOU FEEL?

101 replies

MusicLover · 04/11/2005 12:25

I was going to change my name for this, but bugger it Ive done nothing to be ashamed of..

I was going on my DH History on the pc to find a site he had been on recently...To my horror I found "Porn Sites" !!!!

I feel repulsed TBH. I cant get it out of my mind. I've not confronted him. I work some evenings so thats when he obviously goes on them.
My friend went through this a couple of years ago with her dp, so my DH does know how I feel about porn.
Im no prude at all, but its the secrecy of it thats really doing my head in.

Is this just a man thing?
Am I overeacting?

How would you feel?

OP posts:
ks · 14/11/2005 14:46

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

LoveMyGirls · 14/11/2005 15:06

aww thanks KS, on the respect thing its not just with the porn thing it goes for other things too i think we have a great relationship because of this, neither of us do anything without the other approving first even if its something silly like buying beer (we're skint and he earns more than me but he always asks me if its ok before he gets any)

forestfern · 26/11/2005 17:33

Anybody who is truly in love, young or not, and has not been exposed to problems relating to P should probably not read this thread. Disillusionment is not a given in life, it is always a sadness.

I would like opinions on something. So, some people have commented that some P is Ok but not ?hardcore?. What do they dislike about this? Surely if by definition it is simply evidence of male pleasure through visualizing the erection, and the ?money shot?, there is not much abnormal about that. Obviously this heightens the male stimulation. But why do they not use language such as ?an orgy of fun? or ?they are really hot for it? if they want to fantisize about nymphos and groupies. Why must the language itself be descriptive of reducing female sexuality to that of ?providing? whatever the male requires and the lack of respect for that? ?Slag?, ?sluts?, ?whores?, ?she will take it this way, that way for you ?? etc. This seems confusing to me. Along the thin blue line of misogony, sexual control and rape. If a prostitue were to be given the money without the sex, she would take the money and not give the sex, 99% of the time. So, the description here of ?consenting? is very thin.

So, what of this misogonist, aggressive use of language structure within hardcore pornography. Why is it there? What purpose does it serve as part of the package. Here the boundry between erotic and pornography becomes absolutely evident. The former is certainly an enjoyable, nearly fully consenting interaction between a male and female with equal stage, in terms of fantasy, not the filming necessarily.

crimbocrazydazy · 26/11/2005 18:19

I myself would not be too bothered about the porn although I would question why he feels the need to use it but I WOULD DEFINITELY BE ANGRY BY THE ONLINE CHATTING!!!! No way acceptable!!!

monkeytrousers · 26/11/2005 18:48

All heterosexual men will like looking at an attractive young female. There?s nothing wrong with appreciating that beauty, but that?s not what porn offers anyone. Porn is immoral on many levels. Fancying women isn?t immoral. Fantasising about sex isn?t either. Making, buying and selling porn is. And there will be men who don?t look at porn for this very reason. There is no equivalence between watching porn and looking at women on the street.

Forestfern, please don?t take offence but I think you need to either drop the biology or the psychoanalysis, the two don?t fit together well and you?ll not find many answers trying. Not at the level you seem familiar with them both anyway. You?re making a lot of category errors and making even more assumptions based on ignorance of real biology. Your example of sperm selection is a good (or bad) one for instance. It seems like you?re just trying to make sense of something but I?m not really sure what.

forestfern · 27/11/2005 20:25

MKtrousers. I am not offended by what you say. However, you should at least qualify it. Answers are never found through us ignoring the challenges of thought. The purpose of the neocortex. Homo sapiens has a rather large one. I am certainly not ignorant of biology, by the way -I am highly qualified in that department. I try to think through my contributions to a discussion. Few people, Kinsky maybe, would proport to have all the answers to these sexual issues, which are currently worsening with the prevelance of the internet. Masters and Johnson turned up a bit of irony in the bedroom department did they not!?

fireflyfairy2 · 27/11/2005 20:44

TBH I had a thought it was all copied and pasted from a site It reads like an essay (FF's post I mean)

monkeytrousers · 27/11/2005 21:21

I'm just not sure what your asking for opinions on though FF. One at a time for my feeble brain though please.

nooka · 27/11/2005 21:39

I am afraid that I wouldn't assume that if your dh is looking at porn he isn't having an affair. It's not an either / or in my experience. My dh started with looking, the with the chatting, and then with the affair. I don't have a problem with porn per se, although the means of production are an issue (apart from the fact it's so seedy, and "soft-porn" is so incredibly bad). But I do think there is a difference between using a vibrator and fantasy (unless you never fantasize about your partner) and looking at porn. How do others feel about the image of your dh wanking off in front of the computer/TV? I have quite enjoyed watching porn with dh every now and then, as part of experimenting with things in general, but secrecy is a bad bad thing in a marriage.

nooka · 27/11/2005 21:40

Oh, liked forestfern's "essay", but would agree on the one question at a time thing!

forestfern · 28/11/2005 12:11

I suppose I feel disappointed by the P issue. WIt seems the last and unadresed area of equality. I cannot see it at wholly healthy within a loving relationship and it saddens me that some/most men need it? It saddens me that a loved one should be relating openly or secretly to other women who are either being abused/used/utterly materialistic/think nothing special of their sexuality. I think that truly if we did the same it would not be OK with them, if we sold our sexuality or displayed narcissitic arrogance of this kind it would be threatening. These women are hardly likely to be the faithful kind. There are so many issues including the possible ones of misogony and control that I briefed upon earlier. It is such double standards to choose the nice girl for homestead and yung uns and mentally visit the downtown brothel. Gone with wind kind of thing. Victorian times of no contraception surely have to be seen in a very different light.The Madonna/Whore philosphy seems very much alive with the pornograpahy issue. I wonder if it is final one that women need to adress? It is too much to expect men to be able to do it themselves. I wonder that if women do not stick up for themselves over these kinds of issues whether we will be robbed of our right to our full female sexuality with both its femininity and its lustiness, something that surely is our right to own?

ggglimpopo · 28/11/2005 12:19

Message withdrawn

monkeytrousers · 28/11/2005 15:34

Porn? Surely you mean sex GGG. I know quite alot of men who aren't interested in porn.

monkeytrousers · 28/11/2005 16:02

But I don't know anyone who's never been interested in sex, male or female. Our sexuality isn't necessarily deviant and it's one of the defining elements of our humanity.

And of course women can't do the same thing as men. They get pregnant and have children, men don't. Our sexualities have evolved over time as have our other characteristics. The blunt truth of the matter is men and women have literally shaped each other via sexual selection. The madonna/whore dichotomy is always prevalent as the issue of paternity is the main concern for males of every species. Humans have evolved to favour generally monogamous pairings, one or two over the course of a lifetime. Porn is a moral and wholly separate issue to biology though.

forestfern · 01/12/2005 11:42

It would be interesting to hear why men who are genuinly not interested in P, aren't. By the Madonna/Whore comment I meant the inherent "splitting" that may have become more prevelent with some males than others. Of "sex" and "love". There is some of this in most men and women I think - but it is where we draw the line and where there is crossing over the line. The Madonna is the "good" woman, the homely child-rearing type and the "whore" represents the sexuality. For most women the divide is recognised as a false representation of them. For some men I wonder if this split idea has formed too strongly at an early age and become ingrained. Possibly they make overall more "friendly" partners, but the intimacy within the sexual area is harder for them. Maybe sex for them is more of a mechanical act with a race to the finish line. Get the high. A friend in the end cannot be a lover. Just thoughts.

monkeytrousers · 01/12/2005 13:35

Because their morality isn't subordinated by their sexuality Forsetfern. Or to put it crudley, not all men are slaves to their aching gonads.

In answer to your other questions, have you read Gerad Diamond's 'Why is Sex Fun?'. It's a discussion on the themes you've mentioned and is about as accessible as you can get as an intro to evolutionary biology and the 'battle of the sexes', except text books.

riab · 01/12/2005 13:44

I wouldn't give a flying tbh if its just the odd site/picture. We (me and DH) both access erotica and thats our business to handle as adults. Now if he was looking at piccies of bigbreated blondes with no brains I might have a chat to him becasue thats so far removed form who I am and how I look it'd make me wonder why he wasn't happy.
LIkeiwse if our sexlife was suffering BECAUSE of the amoutn of itme he or I spent on erotica/porn then we'd talk.

But honestly we all fantasise and think about sex, thats part of being an adult and being in control of (and tkaing pleasure in) your sexuality.
Men generally find pictures more erotic whereas women find words and imaginaiton work better for them.

I think the key is to work out WHY you don't like him looking at sites, is it because you find the idea of 'kinky' or non mainstream sex to be disgusting? are you afraid he will ask that your sexlife expands a bit? do you feel that he is comparing you to the women on the sites?

Oh and playing around on someone else phone or PC is snooping in my book, its like reading someones diary.

monkeytrousers · 01/12/2005 14:24

A fantasy doesn't involve anyone being exploited, which is very often the case with porn though, isn't it. My partner and I have very healthy sexualies but we don't use porn as an aid for moral reasons, not because if we happened to see it our gonads wouldn't twitch. Porn pushes very primal buttons in all of us. It's the lowest common denominator and everyone unconsciously reacts to erotica whether they like it or not. But we can all make a conscious decision to stay away from it. That's part of being a moral human animal.

forestfern · 01/12/2005 19:21

OK, here goes.

Of escalation ?

I met my DH 7yr ago. After 2wk I noticed 15 P movies, no other movies. They were obviously shared between friends ?Petes Blue movie? and taped from sky ? Eurotica?. He asked me if I wanted to watch ?lesbians? with him, I declined. Sharing sexuality amongst mates was new and lacking in intimacy to me. It was not a romantic start. I asked him why he had asked me, he was very attracted to me obviously, and he said that he was worried that he may lose interest after the first year, as this always happened in his relationships. He was 3mth out of a relationship of 3yr where they had shared the P in order to remain interested. He said the love was not there, he was in control of everything, and had a one-night stand whilst she was away. Prior to this he met his last partner whilst he was married ? lasting 7yr, ending because he decided not to go forward and have children. He told me recently that he had asked his last partner also if her friend might like to join in the sex. He also told me recently that during the 3mth break he had been asking different women about their attitudes to pornography. He also said that one woman who said ? I only want you for sex tonight? had lead to a loss of erection?

He was always oogling around every time we went out, but overtly attentive to me in a love-friendly way, with eskimo kisses, hand holding and gazing into eyes, sharing the bathroom, naked in bed and spooning. He often behaved in a submissive, childlike way when naked which, at the times that he did this I found alarming. He was not my child. I found all this desexualising. I told him it was not my way. He never changed any of it.

On the other hand, the sex was quite mechanical and Pgraphic . ?Snake in the bed?, waking up to a penis in my face on the pillow as a joke, ?have you come yet? ?pearl necklace? etc. He also asked me if I would like a vibrator. Whenever I dressed up looking sexy it was never enough. ?Why don?t you go out with no knickers on? ?you should have told me you weren?t wearing a bra ? ?if you wore that underwear in the middle of M&s, now that would really turn me on?.

After 4wk. We were due to have a Salsa lesson and he had to tell me that the ?animal? girl who would be coming down was absolutely stunning. I was so upset, I said ?no thanks?. For him, maybe it represented heightened stimulation?

I then found a typed letter about a groupie in London with a couple of photos of a normal-looking girl in her home, with susp. I decided that if the P videos alone were not enough, this furthur involvement of an everyday girl was a bit worrying. I left him a letter saying that we must end things, all this was not compatible with my sexual attitudes. He said that the P meant nothing to him and it would all go in the bin. He promised me it would never happen again and that it was ?unfulfilling? and I was enough and that he was madly in love with me. I decided to give it a try because we had other thing sin common.

We would go for walks, to him it meant trousers round my ankles. I wanted to make love in the tent with the rain beating down in the New Forest, he wasn?t interested.

We would go out on Friday night and I would look good, he would get very angry if anybody whistled or showed me attention. Not flattered. This happened a lot when he went to the toilet, I don?t know why. He would start off looking around, treating me like a friend, charmless, go to the loo, come back and find somebody else giving me attention. This, plus alcohol, interfered with things.

It became a Sunday morning ten minute rising within year. I began to object to this because I was not enjoying it, I was bored and felt like a recepticle. He never altered it. My refusal cut the interaction down to monthly.We stayed together because I felt love for him and knew that he loved me. But the sexual side was not good. He has always called me twice daily and has done anything I have needed or asked for. Even on business trips, 6x yearly, he would call regularly. Sounded depressed about something, and cut off from me on his return, when I was really looking forward to some good sexual bonding. He bought me some boring white underwear, but was ntot interested when I wore it. He told me ?I looked nice? when I dressed up sexy for him on his return, but still he ignored me. I accused him off having nothing left, probably because of a week of P ? he denied it. I asked him to take some sexy pictures of me away with him, or for us to have phone sex. He ignored it. I accused him of our sex life being dire because of a return of P. He denied it. I learned recently that I was correct. If I had known, I would never have gone into the pregnancy. Such is my feelings regarding HC pornography, and he knew it.

We built a lovely home together, he spoilt the DIY as a bonding excercise because he was always swearing being aggressive. He was always aggressive when we went out ? driving, meals. He always looked at me furiously when I looked sexy when we went out for a meal, saying he was getting hot, going red and he used to go outside to cool off? For me it was a chance for bonding and a romantic,erotic interaction

My work option came up with the issue of moving. I decided I had to do it. The salary was good. He came with me. He got increasing chances to be alone because of the long hours. I felt an increasing lack of intimacy. I wanted us to end or move forward, and I wanted a child. I was 37. He agreed. He said he wasn?t sure, I suppose I gave him an ultimatum because I didn?t want to waste any more time, and I knew he loved me. He was spending his time distancing himself from me sexually and convincing himself that he did not love me, but doing nothing about it apart from the P < I learned later>.I felt that an increase in real intimacy would repair whatever were his problems. We argued a lot, I admit.

After only 2 attempts we got pregnant. 8 wk into it he turned on me. Aggressive, dismissive, rude etc Totally ignored me sexually. I decided not to address it. I watched erotic films when he was out because I was so highly sexed. I told him how I felt, but he ignored me still. He said later that he was getting his own back because I had been critical of him and tried to change him.

The distance widened during the first few mth of the babies life. He would not let her be in the room with us. He said that the toys everywhere reminded him of the invasion. He starting going off all the time and buttoning up his coat, saying ?dont you think its cold??. I said that if our friendship and sexual relationship did not return within the next 6mth we would have to separate. I pushed the issue, as I have many times, admittedly, he says this was a major problem that I kept saying we should finish, don?t know what would have happened if I hadn?t. I knew it was about sex. Don?t know how, just did. One day he was with the baby 6mth old on his knee and I came upstairs and he pushed his phone out of view. I grabbed it and it began. He said a couple had been texting him to meet up for a threesome. He had been spammed. I said that if he did not show me the texts, I would never know. He went to the bathroom and deleted them. I kicked the door in.

I then found numbers of escort agencies and a number of a girl. He went off to work and phoned his mum, said he had been considering escorts.

He then phoned me later in the day, saying that he had been thinking of ways to earn money if we split. Thought it would be a good thing to be a male escort. He would enjoy it and might meet somebody. The initial ad had led to contact form a massage parlour. I asked him why he had then not told the ?truth? to his mother. The former is worse than the latter to me, he said not.

He said that he had not bonded with his daughter and he was afraid. He broke down in tears and said how much he loved me and that he would understand if I left him. I went away a cple days later and he still went indulging again on the internet, I discovered. Me and the baby nearly went under a lorry with stress, and she was in hospital with dehydration, but the latter not his fault. He said how good he had been in finding me somewhere halfway to stay when I had been too exhausted and stressed to drive any furthur. He should not have let me go. He said later that he had got so carried away with porn that he thought it would be Ok to be in a threesomes and paid. I phoned one and it was a massage parolour. He told me that it had started off as him being a toy-boy for a bored, rich woman and that since the MP had contacted him, he thought that might be alright. I said ?what about drugs, jealous partners? ?sexual health? etc. Do you think this would have been a safe environment for our child, with your joint cusody?? How could you disgrace her locally like this, advertising in the local paper?? ?Do you think I want this kind of money from you? < I can earn a very good salary>

We went to 25 Relate sessions and he admitted that the P had been there all along and that he now was a changed man and understood how damaging it was to intimacy, not ?focusing his sexual attention? on his partner. Since she was 6mth he has been the ideal father and saying how much he loves me and wants to make love. I really cant now. How he ever thought he was so attractive to be a male escort is beyond me. He isn?t. Moral issues aside. I have also had comments about 40 male crisis. Yes, work was dire also, played a very big part in his self-esteem issues. I also found an audi TT for him after 6wk pregnancy, I was worried that he might feel left out. He was also looking at Harley-Davidsons and I asked him how this would fit in with a child. Also, the CE at work was using escorts on business and charging them to the company. His boss was having an affair, the result of which he was losing work over ? to a woman.

We had some fulfilling sex, through love and crisis of loss, initially. I do love him, but I cannot really think of a reason to have sex anymore. I play my iPod and yearn for romantic, sensual passion. I am supposed to be moving to Switzerland in 3wk as he has a good job offer. His daughter loves him and I do not want to break up the family, or be alone. I have decided to cut out my libido. I would rather have one-off sex with a hunky gardener than go any further into this sexually, so the best option is to cut it out. I have, and can do it. The ?iffs? too. What of escorts abroad on trips? The pictures of animal sex and the disgusting Japanese picture that nobody should ever see , that apparently downloaded itself, otherwise he would not have left it on the PC? It was utterly appalling. I would not ever show that to a male, but it is in my lawyer folder. I have worries also for my child. If a man does not know his boundaries? I doubt that, though. But it is me who would be to blame in the future were it to happen.

I do not know what to make of all this. I am very lost. I may lose work if I go to Switzerland, but I have said that I will return if the French does not get enough to find we work within the 12mth. I am worried that if I cannot find work, the Swii authorities may feel that her father is a better financial bet than I am.

Any discussions now are fruitless. Before we argued. Now ? I am a changed man? ?I am a father?. Before ? I was worried that family values were not compatible with what I was doing? ? I was obsessed with sex toys? ? You can always use a condom, ask your brother ? can you imagine me doing that! He went completely mad. I kept asking my therapist not to lose the situation. It got lost over time. Now all I am left with is ? ? I am changed??

Now it all seems like a nightmare. Only I seem left with the reality of it. My family having to fit round it. What should I do??

Thank you so much to anybody who has taken the effort to read my plight. I would love some advice. There are some out there who will say ? My God, a guy who likes porn has ended up so desperate?. You are entitiled to your opinion. I have been asking some male friends of a mine a few questions. If asked to choose between the partner and the porn, they say it is not so easy. But, I am an attractive and very sexual woman, nothing wrong with me, I like sex. Maybe some should heed it as a warning not to let their partners go too far into this modern-day phenomenon. It may backfire. You may be left wearing the asses head. Shakespeare. But also, a thread on here!

monkeytrousers · 01/12/2005 21:10

Wow Forestfern, what a terrible story.. You must be at your wits end..

It sounds to me like your DP is addicted to porn, this isn't just the odd flutter, is it? Anything that jepordises your life, work or relationships like you've described is a very unhealthy obsession. I doesn't sound to me like he'll ever stop either as he sound chronically insecure and tries to undermine you to make himself feel better. But I think you probably know all of this already.

..You're right too, I don't think this is a very healthy environment to bring up a child. You have two options, either go with him and try some more or use the opportunity of him leaving to make a fresh start with your family. I think he'll end up wearing you down. If I were you I'd get out now. Easier said than done I know. Can your family help? I'm sure if you tell them the truth they'd support you.

forestfern · 02/12/2005 11:03

Thank you for your swift reply mkt.

Very, very embarassed about having to do the post to ask for advice!

I totally agree with what you say.

monkeytrousers · 02/12/2005 11:35

No problem Forestfern. This is what mumsnet is for!! What have you decided to do?

forestfern · 02/12/2005 14:40

I have three days to decide. House going for rent. Returning may not be so easy emotionally. I am very weary, but I feel maybe that if I can continue the fight within this mess baby and me could have a better life in Switzerland. I somehow think I am more likely to meet somebody else also if I change my circumstances, see what Europe has to offer and enjoy myself. Festivals all over Europe all the time. Could just take baby off for w/end to Salzburg for outdoor Mozart Birthday celebrations 2005. Montreux Jazz/Bach festivals. Ice statues/ sleigh races/en Provence or sud Tirol for arty w/ends ? Ski. It could be dire if I get worn out though, and weary. I know I will take my personal problems with me, but I may find more strength to get out of the relationship with the adventure? There is no recreation of energy at the moment. Making the highly likely assumption that things are in fact, irrepairably damaged between us. I feel it will be just me and baby forever in this house if I dont go. I never meet people through my work, wrong type of work environment, mostly females also. When I toss the coin, I cant stick to the decision!

monkeytrousers · 02/12/2005 15:37

Do you speak the language FF? I know it might seem an odd question but if you don't you may find yourself even more isolated over there.

..How about a compromise? Maybe ask for some time apart for you both to think about things, or say goodbye to your family and friends. So he goes and you stay - stress it's only temporary, that you'll follow him in a few weeks - then you can explore the idea without so much pressure.

I wouldn't worry about meeting another man either. That's just a distraction at the mo.

What does anyone else think??

forestfern · 02/12/2005 17:15

That was my initial intention. I have tried a couple of times to get him to leave, in order to think. Even a lawyers letter didn't work. He got round me.

We cant afford the two properties, I was going to go for an interview last week so that we could have the time apart. Again he talked me round - how wonderful it would be to see the little one on little skis. How magical it all would be with all the snow, how much there would be to do over there. How much he loved me. How much a fresh start was needed. Then he cries a lot, also about how sorry he is. I am then the hard one, I dont cry much. How fatherhood had changed him and the P would never recur, he realises how destructive it was to intimacy. "This is my family, I want to keep it together". And he is such a good father now. He adores the child. She is a fantastic little girl, full of fun and personality. She is holding it together.

I know I am responsible for the being talked round. In a few days a couple will sign to take on the rent from Jan 3. Now I dont want the house to go.

I speak O'level French - so steep learning curve. Am a bit isolated here anyway. Family live long way away and my main friendss through my life have been around the UK and the globe - most of us being mobile and moving on from jobs a lot. Nature of the work.

I feel as if I am living with a Jeckyl and Hyde character. For him, the sexual side is only "1o%", he says. Doesn't really matter how he gets it, even mental seems enough < I hope?>. That explains how he always leans the relationship towards the friendly. Even the counsellor said his attitudes seems almost incestuous and not pertaining to a good sexual relationship with the partner.

I can get a loan. If money was no option I think I would stay for a while. I have had no chance to feel that feeling of relief that might come over me, despite the loneliness. Also, you want to share the treasured moments of the little one dont you. Not just with the camcorder. He knows her every change like me and is very attentive. She definately doesnt come second to his work, and he is very good at always including me. Always greets me first on arrival, a friend of mine gets upset because her husband always runs up to the little one first.

Sorry to go on and bore you again! If only he weren't so good now. He always has done anything for me. But give himself intimately. But still I cant do the intimacy now. Last time 3mth ago - even then under duress, in Spain and feeling a bit in the mood with the rays of sun tingling the skin and the spirit an all that.

I couldn't care less any more if he finds me attractive. No wonder I bored him if he wanted so much P junk. Lazy, he says.

I think that I am about to take the easy way out, which I will regret. Eveybody that cares about me is telling me not to go, but my mother can understand that I want a move from England. If only we could afford to live separately over there. That would be ideal. I wonder how many people would split so much more easily if finances were not an issue. Children make a woman so vulnerable. I fully looked after myself before I met him. Then, somehow everything started to get done for me, which I resisted and hated the loss of independance. He turned the knife in when "he knew I couldn't leave" with the pregnancy. Also I have a disc prolapsee since the birth which has been terrible, he has had to come home from work to lift the baby sometimes. I couldn't move. I have been frightened that I wouldn't be able to look after her alone. The past few wk it has been great - seems to have nearly recovered! This has made me feel stronger, but its getting a bit late now. I think that maybe if I had not had this disability to add to my emotional hurt, I might have arranged to stay here for a while.

I have 3days to decide!