Genuine question to those in bad relationships.

[upahill]

I have read over the years on this forum some terrible stories of how supposedly 'D'P's speak to and treat their wives and girlfriends

I hear how lazy some husbands are and of some right stinking sense of entitlement some of them have.
I have been genuinely shocked by some of the stories.

Out of curoristy those that are in bad relationships,were your partners always cruel. Did you see any bad traits in them before you moved in together or was it a gradual decline?

I have a couple of friends that have ended up in lousy relationships that more or less the rest of the population could see would end in tears - except them. There was no convincing them that their choice of bloke was the fella from the depths of hell. They had to discover that for themselves.

i do not think it is always obvious, we will all know someone who is in an abusive relationship and we are often unaware, sometimes not. i have been really shocked by some of the women i have known who have been in abusive relationships

yes it is always gradual

i have seen my best friend go from a really confident, outgoing, happy secure in herself (she was certainly not lacking in self esteem) into someone who hates herself and the way she looks and its her husbands emotional bullying that has done it to her :( her mil told her to be careful that he lies and can never be honest, she thought she could change him

With my ex there were definitely red flags from the beginning, but I was inexperienced and 19 at the time so didn't recognise these like I would if it happened now.
Guys like that often slowly pick away at your self esteem with little comments here and there. It's this gradual breakdown that really makes you trapped. Plus such guys are often great at making you feel extremely guilty and wrong if you even consider leaving.

But with some guys you don't see the 'real' them till later on. That's why I think it's a bad idea to marry someone before living with them. Living with someone and spending so much time with them really shows someone for who they really are.

I hope I've learnt enough from that experience to never go through such a thing again. I feel so alert to any red flags now.

I had a reply from relate regarding my situation & they want me to contact WA. Which seems odd, as H hasn't been physically violent towards me. In fact one of the things he has said is - I don't beat you, do I?

No, he doesn't.

It is gradual & it's very subtle.

Some advice from relate echoed advice I've been given on mumsnet. Thing is, I can't believe it is happening to me. I want him to be the nice, kind, generous man I met & the one people see him as, not the one he is now. That's why I think it must be me - he's said I'm the one with the problems & I'm wracking my brains to work out what I've done. I did tell him as a husband & father he is very good at being a single man - maybe thats what it is. And I've been tired with having the baby.

he says it's all down to me - says I have pnd, but I've been assessed for pnd by the health visitor & I don't have it. he insists that I do. But I feel OK & happy when he's not around.

I also got pissed off with him when we went out for lunch on the due date of the baby I miscarried as he was on the phone & didn't talk to me. he laughed at me.

That's quite an odd thing to say really isn't it

"I don't beat you, do I?"

Imagine the man in a couple you know who do have a really close loving relationship saying that!

Vivee, does he want a medal for not beating you? or some kind of recognition or acknowledgment of the fact that he "doesn't beat you". Wow.

Wrt to the depression he says you have, that's convenient. Any time you stand up for yourself, question anything, are unhappy with his bad behaviour he can write it off as your depression.

Wrt the misscarriage, he knows you're upset and laughed at your distress. Read that again please. You are distressed because you lost a baby (his baby) and all he could offer you was.............. to laugh at you.

I hope you do ring WA. It's just a phone call. Nobody's going to 'tell' you what to do. They'll just talk to you.

VSxxx

My children's father was perfectly reasonable, fun to be around, loving, trusting and generally perfect boyfriend material until I was pregnant. He then turned into a total bastard. He was like a totally different person. I spent a year in a refuge with my children after all that and from the things I heard from other women while I was there the abusive men often changed when they had children. It's him, not you. At all. Don't beat yourself up, or question yourself.

It was a horrifically violent relationship towards the end, but the mental and emotional abuse did far, far more damage. I'm pleased to hear you've contacted relate, and I very much hope you do get in touch with WA. They are really good.

Sorry, I'm not great at this kind of thing, just wanted to weigh in with a little support :)

Sorry that was to ViVee.

Vivee, there are so many women on MN who have gone through what you are experiencing now and in no case that I have ever seen or heard of does the abusive partner return to being the nice, kind, generous person they were (or seemed to be) at the beginning of the relationship.

This is not your fault. You have not done anything wrong, and, as I think you know yourself, no matter what you do, no matter how you try to please him it will not make any difference. If anything, he will probably treat you even worse.

All his actions and words are designed to erode your self-esteem, to disempower you and make you feel helpless and hopeless. This is very deliberate on his part, and it is a type of emotional abuse which in a way can be even more harmful than physical violence. When he says 'I don't hit you do i?' what he is saying is that he knows he abuses you emotionally, but that he is too clever to get caught out by doing something that will leave physical evidence.

His behaviour is utterly and completely unacceptable. You deserve love, not this hateful, toxic situation. He is the one who has failed you (and your children) and not the other way around. Of course he cannot take away your children, any legal adviser will tell you that straightaway. If you do not feel ready to make a move to get out of this relationship, at least try to find out exactly what your legal and financial rights are. Why not just phone WA? Just to see what they have to say. If you feel it's not helpful you can always just hang up.

Either way, would it be possible for you to go away with the children for a few days? To stay with relatives or friends? Maybe a bit of distance would help you to think more clearly.

Best wishes, xx

Vivee, I do know what you mean about feeling you've "failed" if you contact WA. It took me about a year to follow similar advice from Relate to contact WA. I'd invested so much in the relationship, and it was hard to admit I was wrong. But he was getting nastier and nastier, and my "investment" was getting worse all the time, so one day you take a deep breath and you do it, you let go.

A very late response, but I loved Freckle's post from Monday. There were a few red flags for me, but I ignored them because it was a long-distance relationship and I didn't see him that much, so I spent a lot of time with the fantasy him rather than the actual him. And to be brutally honest, I was wilfully blind, because I was in my thirties, hadn't had lots of romantic success, and wanted a partner and a baby. A tiny part of me was screaming "don't do it!" and I totally ignored it. Then, when the baby was born, he didn't just let the mask slip, he threw it away completely.

On the housework, he was great at the start - used to cook and clean etc. Then when he had the baby and felt I couldn't leave, he would deliberately mess the house up - throw dirty socks around, push stuff off the kitchen table, leave the baby's dirty nappies for me to clear up.

He created a very convincing persona at the start, and I loved that persona very much. Took a while to realize that it was just a persona, and not the real person inside.

nicknametaken can really relate to your 2nd paragraph

I think the red flags are always there, right from the very beginning.

The first time he twists his face because you want to go out with your friends instead of him: it isn't cute or loving, it's a red flag.
The first time you have sex when you really don't want to: it doesn't keep the peace, it's a red flag.
The day he gets a face on and makes you leave the pub because you had a brief chat with another bloke there: it's not sweet devotion, IT'S A BLOODY RED FLAG.

When WILL women learn ffs.

Agree Gay. Also agree with Magon that you should live with a man before marrying him or (worse) having a baby with him.

I'd be amazed if these schemers could maintain such a perfect facade that they never gave themselves away. It could be a stray remark, a twitch of the face, strange outburst that gives a glimpse into their dark soul that all is not right. It might not be directed at you, but should be regarded as equally sinister if directed at others. It might come out when they are under stress.

I am perhaps more cynical than most. I don't believe a leopard can change or, consistently over a period of time, hide their spots.

I remember once asking someone if her boyfriend was good to her. She said "Well, he doesn't beat me...."

Maybe some people's self esteem and expectations are so low that they don't think they deserve any better.

I am truly shocked sometimes on MN at the way some women's husbands/partners speak to them and treat them

Yeah Tommy, but alternatively, I think I didn't 'see' what should have been clear to a blindwoman because all the men in my family, father, uncles, cousins, brothers are all decent, friendly, normal, sociable, happy, considerate.............................. I think I couldn't quite process the reality.

Gay, I have learnt now alright.

I think self esteem and society pressure do not help and until women are truly economically powerful then it will be hard for women to get out of bad relationships.

I have a really wonderful DH - and I always get comments about how great he is, and how lucky I am with him helping me and being just the general considerate nice guy that he is.

I know he has charisma, but the way some people go on it is like they find it rare that males can be a great Dad and a great partner and help around the house, it really should not be too hard for a man to be all these things and be my equal.

I don't believe that they start off fabulous and turn into monsters. No-one can maintain that facade 24/7. As Blueshoes so rightly says, they show their true colours from day 1. But some people are so desperate for a relationship, they ignore the warning signs.

No they don't show their true colours from day 1. They are often extremely clever and know full well that they can't show their true colours until you are 'trapped'. These bully boys are masters of self-control and they have the control to rein themselves in until you are dependent on them.

and as for the glimpses that all is not quite right are hard to interpret. Also, when you do recognise those red flags, you don't quite know what to do with that information. "Call it all off because he frowned slightly when I mentioned visiting my sister?".

Gay40 - you could rephrase what you have written and write - when will men learn ffs? Why should the onus be on the person who as behaved reasonably? Do tell!

Or even, the person who has behaved reasonably? Do you not think that when a person behaves badly, they should be the one to face the consequences of their stupid actions. I do.

I think its there at the beginning but you don't see it. You see what you want to see. That was my experience. On reflection I think having low self esteem just means you end up so delighted that you have got a seemingly lovely man who is interested in you at the time that is enough. You end up embroiled in something and kid yourself because you want to. Unfortunately the bad stuff and the mild bullying can't hide forever but it becomes a way of life and its not till you're out of it that you see it for what it is. Very hard when you become emotionally and financially trapped and in my case it was him that threw in the towel. Only just realizing what a good thing in the long run that is.
ViVee - can totally relate to what you've posted. Can't stay but can't leave. My hand was forced and thank god for that.
It's scary being on your own but you start to see he was the only one saying you were wrong.

Men have learnt that women will let them get away with a great deal. Like staying with them, when they are a complete cunt, and making up silly excuses for inexcusable behaviour. We see it on here all the time. "Ah, men - that's just the way they are."
No, it isn't. Stop putting up with it and reinforcing this shit to your kids. Relationships should be about equality.

Practically everyone who has been in a shit relationship looks back and sees the signs from day 1. They were there. You just chose to ignore them because he brought you service station flowers.

Yeah I agree tadpoles. I've lived and learned, and I take responsibility for what I didn't see, and for not leaving sooner, but it's really hard to see "wimmin like me" so to speak just filed under for fucks sake.

My x put a lot of work into fooling me that he was a decent guy and also 'mirroring me' which is something i've learnt about since leaving with him. If I stayed longer than I should have it's becaue I couldn't quite believe the badness he had in him. It just did NOT seem possible.

Who are you talking to right now gay40? I left my x, as did a fair few others on this thread I think. Vivee is trying to get enough confidence under her belt to get there. I think this line of frustration is probably not useful on this thread.

Jesus, service station flowers? you've no idea. he'd read the books I'd read. He spoke spanish like I did, he was into jogging and keeping fit like I was. Later I realised that a lot of this was 'mirroring'. But service station flowers? you do insult the intelligence of a lot of women. If you were a regular on the NPD thread you'd know that we are not a bunch of simpering fannies.

Can't ever remember being bought flowers in 13 years - not even from a service station

I also used to think this must be what a prostitute feels like if he wanted to have sex and I didn't. It was an easier option thatn saying no. The critism was too much to bear. Never said that ever before.