25 years together but can't take any more?

[BarbieGrows]

Erm, we met at a party, love at first sight, me 21, he 28. moved in together at 25, had first baby at 34, second at 36. Time passes as you keep busy!
So there's all this history, we are 'part of each other'. But there has always been conflict, starting with him going to the pub before coming to see me at 22, then me having to go to the pub to get his company as he didn't want to go out anywhere and do anything else (not as much as I had liked). There was hurt when arguments happened, of the emotional gut-wrenching kind. It's all a bit blurry to be honest - no physical violence, nothing technically abusive, just negativity. He drinks very rarely now and hardly ever goes out with anyone at all. He's happy that way though, not socially outcast, just prefers his own company.

And so things plodded on, up and down, in (mostly in) and out. So now we have beautiful children, home, a comfortable life but the misery is still there, occasionally lifted by a good conversation, a laugh, a constructive moment. But now the hurt lasts longer than it should, for days I don't want him to touch me. I have explained this pattern (for years now) but still it doesn't change, he nor me.

Splitting up is so complicated, I wonder whether we should move apart but stay together for a few nights a week? It would mean a move to the country but I think it could work as it will calm the arguing. We do appreciate each other a lot more when we've been away.

I tell him that the only reason I'm still with him is that I'm strong and can put up with it. He turns that into - 'yeah that says it all...', not 'oh sorry I didn't mean it. An example.

Anyway, all views appreciated, but please understand that after all this time it's not something I will be able to just walk away from.

Just been re-reading this after doing some contemplating. I'm sidetracking myself from the issue by wanting to move to the country, it would be a way to be apart for a while to get my breath back - he would be in town for a couple of nights. It really isn't a solution. Anyways let's hope the counsellor has some ideas. I'm still totally lost, don't know what I want at all.

I was wondering how you were getting on. It sounds like you def need a change of some sort. Let us know how the counselling goes.

Thanks E&F - talking on here is good but it can really confuse things too - everyone has their own opinions etc. But it is good to get some straight talking advice, thanks to everyone who has taken an interest, it's put things in perspective a bit. After such a long time I don't know who I am any more and this has really helped.

Saw counsellor yesterday - phew!
Alone - OH twice changed his mind, the last time was ten minutes before leaving.
But it was good for me but hard to open that can of worms and they're still just wriggling around with nowhere to go.

Just worked out what our major destructive pattern is - I wonder if anyone could give advice. Feel free to skimread, it goes on a bit.

I try to keep a routine, have things organised, try to set boundaries, know where we are at, make plans. I'm very flexible by nature but I know it's important to have structure.

His input into our life nearly always has the following results.

Routine - his has always been the same. Never changed and very very rarely makes a change for us. He breaks ours - decides to come up and crack some jokes as we're trying to focus on homework for instance, late TV, always the last to get up and usually sleeps til midday at weekends.

Organised - He 'tidies up' - i.e. moves everything and puts it in another place in no order at the same time as making me feel he's been pushed into it because it's not tidy. The only time I don't know where it is is when he's moved it somewhere and then I have to ask him where it is. He very rarely tidies as he goes along, it's always a sudden grumpy overhaul of a room. He buys stuff all the time, bits of this and that - it clutters up the house and there's no space to put any more. We have all we need.

Boundaries - I try to set them, he tries to break them. I'm very clear with him about what I expect from him - bring your cups down, put your socks in the laundry, don't smoke in the house (changed now since I took the back room door off) and I will do everything else. He ALWAYS pushes them. There are currently about 5 cups on his bedside, festering. And this follows through with the kids - and me - buys me chocolate when I'm on a diet, gives the kids chocolate when they have been told NO by profs, brings six pack chocolates home when I say PLEASE don't - it's not good for me or them. I'm no way against chocolate, but a giant kitkat before bedtime is not a healthy habit to get into.

Knowing what we're doing - he never looks at the family calendar. He never goes to parents evenings, doctors appointments unless I tell him in no uncertain terms that it's particularly important. He doesn't know when school holidays are, I tell him about minor events happening and he pretends I didn't tell him. I no longer expect anything from him in this respect, I plan and do, but where I used to flap about when he couldn't come I just don't expect it any more. The counsellor example was a classic - he changed his mind three times and only 5 minutes before leaving told me he wasn't coming (angrily). I then had to discuss this with the counsellor!

Making plans - it just doesn't happened. We haven't made a will, we don't have life goals, we don't have long term or short term plans. Recently I heard him say that he would have liked to travel but then he met me!!!! What? Who gave up on planning travel because he would never commit and by the time leave came up nothing was booked. Of course I've learnt now to just do it anyway and if he wants to come then there's a seat on the plane if he wants it. (Not usually a plane btw, usually 'in the tent' or 'in the family room' - we are not that rich).

And finally, all of these attempts at organisation result in conflict - he dodges questions with questions back at me, never continuing a conversation until there is an agreement, walking off while talking. Blazing row yesterday which involved me repeatedly saying 'yes, but what exactly do you want me to do - I will do it, just tell me what it is and I can plan it into my day'. I'm totally lost.

Now my big question is - is this just the way silly people behave and you just have to work your way round it, or is this subtly destructive behaviour designed to control?

And is it normal to always put stuff in front of cupboards so you can't open them? How can you tidy up when there's 3 boxes/bags/bikes/guitars in front of the cupboard/wardrobe/chest?

(echo) ((echo)) (((echo)))

Barbie i could have written your first post. so close to home it hurts. 24 years married this year, 3DCs. last weekend years of festering came to a head and I finally, finally told him it was over and I wanted to leave. needless to say, I am still here. i am here physically because of Dcs and DH's needs and money, but mentally and emotionally I have left. I have nothing to say that can help you. just that you are not alone in this situation.

Thanks dementedma. I think what's difficult for people to understand is that after such a long time you become so involved with each other, independence would come with massive loss. I think all long term marriages are like this, in that you do become a part of each other. If you got together when young (21 in my case, you don't know where you end and the other person begins. I've been with him longer than I was with my Mum. And so has he, so his dependence on me is just as great as mine.

I understand Barbie. DH is very dependent on me, and I worry he won't cope on his own, but one of these days he is going to have to!
Sounds like you have lost your individual identity. You are DH's wife, not your own person. God, i can relate to that!

It sounds like your DH wants you to be his mum, and you have taken the parent role and are now sick of it. He won't make a decision, you will have to make all the decisions.

It also sounds like you are together through habit, not because you want to be there.

Hi everyone, thanks for all your advice and comments, some of you people are amazing. In fact most of you are, it's been so helpful.

However I can't continue on this forum because the bullying is not something I can cope with in addition to everything else I need to deal with. I'm getting too involved trying to defend other people from bullies and it's taking up too much mental energy and time.

So I find that on the one hand I'm getting support but on the other I am getting drawn into the nasty posting. I have spent most of my life defending myself against emotional abuse and I don't want to have to do it on here. And however they dress it up - it really isn't funny when you're talking about broken lives and broken families.

Barbie- if you are still reading.

what comes over is that you want to leave but you lack the courage to do so.

You talk quite sentimentally about the fact that you have been together longer than you were with your parents- but really, does that matter?

You are obviously not happy. I know that you are upset at some of the harsh comments, but they are a fair.

if you really are unhappy then you must take practical steps to leave- whether that means you will have to find a job first, or sell the house to buy one of your own etc, only you know.

On the other hand, if you came to the forum to simply offload, then there is not a lot anyone can do to suppport you. You do not have to stay with this man- but only you can choose whether you want to.

No, I didn't come on the forum to offload.

I came for help. I'm falling apart and I'm getting some good comments like yours that are helping me keep it together and I value those a LOT.

I've bought a book about emotional abuse, I'm seeing a counsellor and I'll see how I go with that for now but ironically I'm now at the receiving end of bullying/emotional abuse on this site has just really taken its toll.

Thanks sj.

I'll tell myself to shutup now before anyone else does it for me.

I've been with my DH for 21 years, since we were 20. I'm amazed you've stuck with it this long. You do sound very robust, but you are describing a very unhappy, destructive marriage.

I'm not sure about where the bullying is that you are referring to.

OK, seen it now.

Take care. Glad you are taking steps

Barbie- I don't think you are being bullied here. There are a few outspoken posters who always say the same type of thing to anyone who describes a situation like yours. On a public forum you will always get a range of opinions. It can be hurtful to read comments that are meant to jolt you into action, but I still think those posters are trying to help you. It is possible that you have got into a victim mode.

I think it would help if you could clarify whether you want to leave- and need emotional support to do that- or if you are undecided about leaving. I for one cannnot tell from what you have written.

You see, part of you seems to be set on either changing your DH or finding a way of coping with his behaviour.

I also think that part of you is acting like a victim- you do have a choice how to behave you know. You can decide today to leave and start making plans.

The point is- is that what you want- or do you not know what you want?

strawberry - AFAIK she's referring to another thread she didn't start

Jamie thanks, another insightful comment - it helps to get this perspective, really does. I am indeed robust, hence the comment I made about only being with him because I'm strong enough to be. Not good to be too robust, though. I have made the decision to leave (can't believe I just said that) but it's hard to disentangle 25 years. I might actually go and live with Mum. She's alone, just lost son and husband and is rattling around. Not too far but kids would have to change schools. Not ideal but we co-own the house and downsizing would be tricky where we live.

sj - you are also spot on. Victim, coping, giving him last chances. No, I do not know what I am, let alone what I want but I think I'm getting close to it. Acting the victim doesn't help but I suppose really I am.

I dived into the other thread to defend someone else.

I've been on a few threads amazed at the bullying going on when people are asking for support. MN has no intention of pre-moderating in the name of free speech but to me this is wrong. It keeps their statistics up - it's a business after all. (A very good one - the world is a better place for it, for sure). But the effect these posters have is akin to emotional abuse, however much it's dressed up as 'opinion'. I'm a principled mare, yet I sense most MNers feel the same but MN doesn't set enough boundaries on this so they are shouted out, I'm definitely not alone in this.

Anyway that's the background to my ranting.

Thanks again everyone, I know I'm being a bit idealistic about MN and human nature but I'm OK with that.

Just been reading my book about emotional abusive relationships. I can't quite believe that this is what's been happening for 25 years.

Amazing this is he doesn't know he's doing it and I never noticed because I tried to be understanding and my Mum seemed to think it was acceptable because her relationship with my Dad was a bit like that too. By the end of their 50 years together she was abusive to him (of course it never hurt him, it was just what he wanted).

My poor kids are now very confused. Thankfully I have always stood up for myself - for example I found myself saying to them 'now when you get older, don't think that's normal acceptable behavour, it's not' !

But whether I like it or not they are experiencing this as some kind of normality. Now, how do you unravel 25 years of entangled life?

Barbie, there is a lot of anger coming from you and, frankly, I'm not blooming surprised. Your description of your marriage does not reflect a normal partnership. Really, I can't see what your H brings to the party apart from sometimes being funny and charming. Most of the things you talk about would be complete deal breakers for me.
I think when you mentioned your parents' relationship in this last post, you are starting to get to the crux of it. You went straight from childhood into this relationship with your DH, with no other point of reference and, yes, you have normalised it all. But it isn't normal. The danger is that your children will have normalised it too (despite what you say to them about it; actions speak a lot louder than words) - dad never getting up before midday, dad never coming on holidays because he can't be bothered to make a decision, dad never really being involved with the family, dad refusing to engage with any sort of discussion with mum about anything serious, dad essentially being another child for mum to parent. etc etc The fact is that, despite what you SAY to your children about it not being normal, you have put up with it for 25 years, so what you are really saying is "it's not normal, but it's good enough for us".
You can still make a stand now, to show them that none of this is normal and that they deserve better and can EXPECT better when they come to have their own relationships. But it will take strength you don't seem to think you have. And it will mean separating from your H. He isn't going to change now, and this relationship is grinding you down.
I really hope counselling can help you to see all that, and to find the strength to leave.

Barbie-when you wrote- "how do you unravel 25 years of entangled life?"- that seemed to make sense of why you are finding the decision so hard. I find from reading many of the relationships threads on mumsnet the advice is always get out now, but surely the reality of leaving a relationship is just not that simple. In rl when friends relationships break down (when they have a home and children together) it always is acrimonious, and seems much easier financially and emotionally just to put up with dp's difficult behaviour.

dollius yes well observed, you are right. I did say to the counsellor at the end of the first session that if things don't change then I'm going to need his help to see me through a separation. I'm prepared to do it, but it seems it's going to be so complicated.

Also to add, he's a great fun Dad, they all love him. He does stuff with them (as long as it's in his remit - he doesn't like anything new). But the example you see he sets them is not being a great Dad.

The thing I learnt from the book is that most people that abuse aren't aware that they are doing it. I am starting to get angry with all the people around me that haven't been straight with me about him - the ones who know what he's like. Interestingly, many of the women I get on with have slightly similar relationships. That whole 'ah men!' thing, or 'just leave him to it - ignore it' or 'but he does work very hard' - or even 'you do know he loves you very much'.

E&F, the reason I'm on here is that the decision is complicated, people don't need to be told whether to leave their partners, they need to be told how and why to do it. Most of the advice here is completely genuine, I do value it - don't get me wrong. Thanks.

Have to say Barbie when you describe your life with your DH, does sound like a parent/teenager relationship. Yes, we might say, "ah men" about the little things but the major things in your life that this man refuses to engage with make him sound pointless as a partner. Do you think your DH is like this at work? Do you think he treats his workmates this way? Piling things up at work so they can't get to their stuff for instance? You say, how do you untangle 25 years, well it sounds like, on the managing side you've been doing all of the managing anyway so it's not going to be that hard for you, and you'll soon be parenting 2 teens at which point continuing to parent the third, (DH) will be just too exhausting.

You might want to read some of the literature around "codependency" as the cycle of you trying to control an uncontrollable situation, while a lot of anger and sadness and denial of self builds up inside sound very relevant here. Also, the transactional analysis school of therapy might help, have you ever read for instance "games people play" by Berne?

Sorry that you are going through this but sounds like there are ways to move forward for you. A solution focussed therapist sounds good, no need now to delve too much into your past as you've been there, looking forward and finding ways inside yourself to move on is something a solution focussed therapist should be a big support for.