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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Temper flares

54 replies

Navani · 11/04/2011 14:49

Name changed to protect the guilty.

My husband has some temper issues. He has always had them, since he was a child, and I am guessing they stem from his upbringing (badly tempered, sometimes violent father, submissive mother - DH is first child and always took the rap for everything his 4 younger siblings did, just because he was the eldest. it was either his fault for not keeping them in line, or it was his fault because the others wouldn't have possibly done that..)
When he gets angry or upset he starts getting loud, and loses control pretty easily. It's a lot like a toddler tantrum, actually, only involving adult language and force. A lot of stuff gets broken, the language is bad.
When he's in full swing, there is no stopping him, unless I want the noise and language aimed at me. I used to try, but gave up when I realised that I couldn't possibly stay calm when he called me a fucking bitch for asking him to calm down or even agreeing with him.
about 3 years after we got married, I couldn't take his tempers anymore, and we started drifting apart. His tempers got worse, and he became violent towards me. I told him he needed to get help, and if he didn't, or ever touched me again, I would be gone, back abroad where my parents live.
He had CBT, and went on Citalopram and Diazepam. Things improved, he got a little better at controlling his temper and anxiety, and we patched things up. nothing ever stopped, even on the meds, but it seemed easier to handle.
He never touched me again.
I became pregnant about a year after, and DS was born 2 years ago.

We moved to a different part of the country, and he stopped his CBT, then stopped the meds. Temper and anxiety came back.
Not as bad as before, but things still get broken, and the language is still terrible.
These outbursts happen a couple of times a week, more often when he is stressed. They can last from a couple of minutes to a few hours and involve him completely breaking down and crying hysterically by the end if they are long and bad ones. He knows they make him act like a prick, and he has apologised more often than I can count. I don't even want to hear it anymore, because I can't say "It's ok.". it isn't.
When he's in the middle of one of these, there is no getting through to him, nothing goes into his head, and when we've talked about it, he says it's like a red mist, or a black wall in front of his eyes, and anything at all will just make things worse.

He says he doesn't want to act like that in front of DS, but he has, a couple of times. If I can see that happening, I take DS out of the room, but it's just not good enough.

When he is not having one of these moments, he is the most wonderful husband and father, he works hard, and loves his family. DS adores him. I love him, but being heavily pregnant with DC2, I am finding this more and more stressful. I have explained this to him.
He doesn't want to try CBT or meds again because he says they didn't really work that well, and that the way the tempers escalated years ago was because of unrelated stress with his family, and that that got better because the stress improved. Also, where we live, everyone knows everyone else and their business, and he is ashamed, saying that everyone would know if he went to see the counsellor here. (and yes, they probably would.)

I don't know what to do anymore. I won't leave him, I've stuck with him through 7 years of marriage, and he is not a bad guy. He just needs help. But I don't know where from or how.

OP posts:
whitevanwoman · 11/04/2011 15:09

I dont understand why you would bring a second child into a bad relationship Confused

GypsyMoth · 11/04/2011 15:17

how do other people react to these outbursts?

how do his family react?
how do his colleagues react?
how do the general public react?
how do his friends react?
how do your friends and family react?
how do your childrens friends/nursery/school react?

or is all this just reserved for YOU op???

has he ever been violent to anyone else? or just YOU??

you are standing by watching your ds being abused. taking him out of the room wont work forever you know!! you are repeating the same cycle here again for your son to learn from as his father did.

why wont you stop this cycle???

AttilaTheMeerkat · 11/04/2011 15:37

Navani,

"I won't leave him. I've stuck with him through 7 years of marriage, and he is
not a bad guy. He just needs help"

What's your role in all this; you want to rescue and or save him here from his own self?.

Hmm, he stopped the CBT and the meds. Why exactly?. He probably thought he was getting better and I reckon he stopped of his own accord. He is now making excuses not to seek counselling or go back on the meds so he has no solutions at all. He could then start self medicating with alcohol/pills; all of which makes things worse.

Are his parents still together btw?.

I ask you a direct question - what are you getting out of this relationship now?. He is patently neither a wonderful husband or father if he is acting like this. And what on earth possessed you to bring another child into this overall dysfunction as well?.

Children will adore any parent no matter how rubbish they are. Its all they know. I am sure too that your DH adored his Dad and look where that got him. The cycle of abuse - the nice/nasty cycle is a continuous one and of course he will apologise each time. It is what happens in such cases but the abuse cycle continues all the same.

Only you can break such a cycle.

The help he had was patently not enough, he would need years of therapy to even begin to counteract what he saw in his own childhood at his parents hands even if that was possible and it may be now too little and too late for him. The legacy of what happened to him is now being passed onto the next generation i.e your children. Is this really what you want for them?. You cannot protect your children from the full extent of his anger here; taking your son out of the room counts for nothing in the long run.

DO you want your children to wonder as adults why you stayed with such an individual?. No and they won' thank you for doing so either and could accuse you of putting him before them. What you are teaching these children is that this is currently all acceptable to you. You are enabling this to continue.

We learn about relationships first and foremost from our parents. What was learnt and what is being taught by both of you now?.

What are you both teaching your children about relationships here; you want your children as adults to act like your H does now?. I am certain he has never thanked his mother for remaining with his Dad if she did and you sound just as submissive and passive as his own mother was. Look at the damage she herself did as you are doing now. What you are teaching these children is that this is currently all acceptable to you.

You have a choice re him ultimately, your children do not.

Navani · 11/04/2011 15:43

WVW - it's not a bad relationship.

ILoveTiffany - his mother rolls her eyes at him. His younger siblings just shrug or say "is he on one again?"
I don't think the general public have every been privvy to one of those outbursts. He doesn't go out much, and when he does, there isn't normally anything happening that can trigger one of those flares. He works from home or his own office, by himself. He only sees his friends at weekends to play football with, other than that he doesn't have a social life.
I think he deliberately withdraws from other people because he doesn't feel he is worth having friends.
He has never been violent to anyone else, has ever got into fights as long as I have known him (since his teenage years). Even when we were assaulted in a park once he never thought about fighting back, just getting me to safety.

I KNOW that taking DS out of the room isn't going to work forever. why do you think it is that I am looking for advice?

Why does everyone on this board always think that every problem can be solved by breaking up an otherwise wonderful marriage? Everything is always so black and white with you all.

OP posts:
GypsyMoth · 11/04/2011 15:48

i've been there...my ex had numerous bouts of anger management....if he is violent,which you say he is,then where do you think this is going to go???

what did he do to you when he was violent??

ShirleyKnot · 11/04/2011 15:52

The reason people always say "get out" when a husband is prone to violent outbursts is because it is the only sensible advice out there, I'm afraid.

GypsyMoth · 11/04/2011 15:56

there are children involved.......you say nothing can help him when he's in a rage......what if a child crosses his path at that point?

and funny how none of this ever happens at football...not known for being calming and serene!! quite the opposite. but guess he would feel a bit scared to lose it with 22+ strapping blokes...and a referee who could book him...

ShirleyKnot · 11/04/2011 16:02

oh, and I'm sorry OP but living with someone who loses his "temper" a couple of times a weeks and is screaming/shouting/swearing/breaking stuff is not a happy marriage. It's really, really, really not.

DooinMeCleanin · 11/04/2011 16:08

I agree with IloveTiffany, I'm afraid. If he had genuine issues controlling his temper it would be directed at anyone who got in his way not just you op.

The only issue your 'D'H is is being an abusive an arsehole. You and your dc deserve better than this. Your dc especially.

Please, if you feel you can't leave at least call Womens Aid to speak to someone about this in RL.

Conflugenglugen · 11/04/2011 16:16

I think it is a valid and important point that the rage is directed at specific people. My take on it is that when he rages, he is not seeing you, but someone or something else; it is just that you are the best target, given his feelings for you and the nature of your relationship.

He's not going to like it, but I think he needs therapy - not counselling and not anger management - and for a duration that would demand a fair amount of commitment. Yes, in places there is a stigma, but I'm utterly unconvinced that that is reason enough not to go. Your relationship and your family are at stake.

AttilaTheMeerkat · 11/04/2011 16:27

Navani,

re your comment:-
"I KNOW that taking DS out of the room isn't going to work forever. why do you think it is that I am looking for advice?
Why does everyone on this board always think that every problem can be solved by breaking up an otherwise wonderful marriage? Everything is always so black and white with you all".

How can you honestly write this is an otherwise wonderful marriage?. You sound like you're submissive and in denial of this whole situation. You do not want to face up to its inherent problems, problems btw you cannot even begin to yourself solve here. He stopped the meds and refuses to entertain these again so he has no new solutions of his own.

You did not also answer what you are getting out of this relationship now.

Do you want people to tell you then what you want to hear?.

Diggs · 11/04/2011 16:51

WVW - it's not a bad relationship.

Its not a good one ! You talk about him losing his temper and getting angry but actually its none of these things , hes just choosing to abuse you . Im not willing to beleive that this guy whos prone to outbursts and " cant help it " somehow didnt have an outburst when you were assaulted , wouldnt that provoke an outburst in anyone ?

Never mind this bollocks about when hes like this theres no getting through to him , a red mist descends ect , because i absoluteley guarentee you op that if the police were to knock on your door during one of his nasty little tantrums that he would stop. Quickly.

If your not willing to leave him then you are exposing your children to abuse , and they will no doubt grow up to do exactly the same to their partners.

Navani · 11/04/2011 17:19

Sorry, my last post crossed with the one before and had to pop out for a bit.

What do I get out of this relationship?
A husband who, when he isn't getting upset about something (to be specific, these temper flares usually happen when he feels he is being treated unfairly, be it because of bad luck, circumstance or because some idiot sent him a completely unreasonable work email) adores the ground I walk on and tells me this, and does a hell of a lot more for me and our son than I see from other fathers. He helps with all of the housework without ever complaining about it, gets up with DS in the night, looks after him when I need to go out for whatever reason, works 50 hours a week to make sure we can live rather than survive on benefits while I retrain because I was unhappy in my job after 5 years. We spend quality time together in the evenings and weekends, doing things together that we both enjoy. He's supported me through severe depression, an accident which has left me in quite some pain at times, and generally understands me. And when, at the end of a day, I am too tired/depressed/hurting to cook dinner he cooks, orders me my favourite take away or takes us out for dinner.

These temper issues are ugly, but they are never directed at a person. They usually consist of random ranting to himself unless I choose to open my mouth, and then it's ranting at me. If I then respond to what he's saying, he gets abusive in my direction. Usually, if ignored, he calms down after about 5-10 minutes (sometimes he doesn't and ends up even more upset). the more upset he gets, the more he will throw things, or punch the wall/himself in the face.
When he was violent towards me, he pulled me towards a wall by my hair and held me up against it.
I think he's done this about 4-5 times in front of DS in the last 2 years, so it's not like it happens all the time, but it's not good enough and should never happen.

it doesn't happen at football because there is generally nothing there that will get to him in a manner that will upset him like that.

OP posts:
LaurieFairyCake · 11/04/2011 17:23

He doesn't need cbt, he needs long term psychotherapy, at least a year.

Help him find a therapist he likes, it sounds like he has very low resilience and self esteem.

I would not recommend this if he was being violent to you.

newnamethistime · 11/04/2011 17:27

When he was violent towards me, he pulled me towards a wall by my hair and held me up against it.
I think he's done this about 4-5 times in front of DS in the last 2 years, so it's not like it happens all the time, but it's not good enough and should never happen.

Well - there you go, 4-5 times in front of your child in 2 years. That's lots actually. Why do you think this will not affect your child? because it is you know, even now.

FWIW - My H was abusive too. He's been in therapy now for a year and a half (weekly) as have I. While he has improved enormously, our dc (7yo) now needs outside help to deal with his anger issues - It's all our fault and the guilt is dreadful.

Navani · 11/04/2011 17:47

serious question, how do you go about finding a psychotherapist in the middle of nowhere?

OP posts:
AttilaTheMeerkat · 11/04/2011 17:51

Navani,

All the good things he does for you do not outweigh either his self inflicted violence and these same behaviours shown towards you. He is a product of his own violent upbringing at the hands of his violent father and submissive mother. He like his Dad is seemingly violent only within the home and only towards you.

Now history is being repeated but this time its you as the Mum.

You cannot help anyone who does not want to be helped.

Where's your tipping point here?.

The only acceptable level of violence within a relationship is none.

Your child has seen and heard an awful lot already in his young life. Where do you see this all heading?.

AttilaTheMeerkat · 11/04/2011 17:52

www.psychotherapy.org.uk

Has a section on there called Find a Therapist.

Navani · 11/04/2011 18:11

If I could manage to drag him to the GP about this again, can you get psychotherapy on the NHS?

I would like to think that he is, fortunately, nothing like his father, who was a violent drunk, mysoginist and homophobe, but I know what you mean.

He has told me that he's noticed in the past how he doesn't seem to lose his temper when nobody is around to listen and validate it, even if it is just by being there. me telling him that I don't want to listen to his ranting doesn't seem to count as the same thing, unfortunately.

He says he wants to get better, but do it by himself. I need to make him see that he can't do it by himself, but I don't know how.

OP posts:
GypsyMoth · 11/04/2011 18:26

he's got to actually WANT the help. you will prob have to pay for it. there will likely be waiting lists.

but what if one of your children speaks to him during one of his 'rages'.....what if he then starts directing his rage at them? you say ou take ds out of the room......but you arent always there.

Navani · 11/04/2011 19:01

"He has told me that he's noticed in the past how he doesn't seem to lose his temper when nobody is around to listen and validate it"

kids don't count here. if it's just DS and him, it's the same as if it was just him.

he wants to get better, I just need to get him to realise that this will have to involve help..

OP posts:
AttilaTheMeerkat · 11/04/2011 19:11

Does he really want to improve things at home?. He thinks he can solve this by himself; I like you doubt very much this particular approach will be successful.

He left off the meds and CBT; what makes you think he would not ultimately back out of any pyschotherapy sessions you perhaps managed to get him into?. This is not a quick fix either; this will require long term commitment from him and that will from him is not there.

You cannot change him and you cannot help someone who ultimately does not want to be helped.

GypsyMoth · 11/04/2011 19:13

yes,if its just him and ds its the same....but christ,that poor child being exposed to that!!! if you arent there,who can comfort him?

cant you see how damaging this is .....your ds is how old?? 2??

you are making excuses....he's been like this since he was a child,how can he change? you say get better? how do you know its an 'illness' which can be cured. its him.

whats he doing to bring about these changes? he's doing the same as you are,maling excuses.

madonnawhore · 11/04/2011 19:17

Navani, incidents of violence towards you 4-5 times in 2 years is shockingly frequent.

I think maybe you have normalised it because you love with it day in day out, but I am telling you 4-5 times in 2 years is a lot. Way too much. It should be none. I am so shocked and worried for you.

You are not going to be this man's rescuer. You shouldn't stay in this violent marriage because you hope that one day he will change. You need to deal with the reality of the situation that's staring you right in the face: your H is episodically violent and abusive and doesn't seem disposed to do anything about it.

So what are you going to do?

madonnawhore · 11/04/2011 19:17

*live