Oh my god, we are so screwed.

[FrightfullyPoshFloss]

I knew Dp owed money. He has his debts and he is paying them. A whole £15,000, with no mortgage, no car, and no time at uni. But, have just been told today, that he also still has money on credit cards and also another loan for 7,000. I've been looking into getting a mortgage which is how all this has come out. How the fuck has he managed to screw this up so badly? How the hell are we going to overcome it?

floss - i really think you and/or you and DP would benefit from some sort of relationship counselling and DP would benefit from some sort debt counselling. i am a little concerned that you and DPs views about having another baby and having a a mortgage seem so different; he may never change his views to agree with what you want. Bottom line is, DP has to want to change. But does he? i do feel from your posts over the last year or so that DP has put you through a hell of a lot in general. I think it's high time you started putting yourself and your lad first, and starting to think of protecting yourself.

Any chance of getting him to go for some sort of counselling? Or couples counselling?

If your relationship was rock-solid (e.g. if he didn't keep doing things that meant that most of Mumsnet would happily hit him in the face with a wet fish), and the fiscal problems were not down to f*ckwittage, which is likely to repeat itself, then yeah, your plan would be great. As it is, no, it's mad, sorry.

He won't let you take over the money? He doesn't want another baby or a mortgage? Whose needs are being put first here?

Please Floss, I really think you both need relationship counselling here too. Read back over what you've written, what would your advice be to a friend who was in the same situation? As a Mumsnet friend I urge you to put yourself and your ds first. He is taking no responsibility for the mess he has got you in and he is placing restrictions on your life because of it. What financial situation would you be in if you tried going it alone?

Thanks EPIS, we have looked into key worker. We may be able to get reduced rent, but this is much less accessable down where we are moving. A grant of about 20-30k is available, but only for nurses and only for living in certain areas (not the areas we were planning). But this can only be arranged about 6 weeks prior to a move, so very short notice and therefore maybe worth a try, but not a good idea to rely on alone.

Have you tried looking at schemes for key workers? They could offer a better deal.

Yes, renting is a pain, but you said so yourself, there's no guarantee your partner might not go on to accrue more debt.

Until that problem is addressed, sorry but it doesn't make very wise financial sense to get yourself further embroiled in shared debts w/him.

Just my 2p.

See a financial adviser. Alone, if need be, to get a better sense of what YOU can afford.

A £20-30K grant isn't a good idea to rely on alone but a 100% mortgage when you've already got £25,000 of debt is?

And so it's not in the area you plan to be in. For now. There's no law saying you have to stay there forever.

I agree w/the suggestions about relationship counselling. And just counselling in general.

I think he says things out if spite. He has told his family we want another baby next year, but to me says he 'isn't sure'. I think it is a way for him to feel he is in control. As for the mortgage, that is him lashing out again IMO, because I was doing all the things that littleBeck said I shouldn't. I have managed to remain so calm up untill today, but I've been trying to look into everything and he is just lounging in bed playing his console which got my back up. I am trying to get him to realise what is going on. I don't know what to do TBH. I've got to decide to go one way or another really I suppose.

Floss, just wanted to say that I don't mind being ignored - you have to decide what's best for you - I just want to make sure you are choosing from a position of knowledge

As others have said, it would be a great plan if you could guarantee that it won't happen again - otherwise you could be just getting yourself into an even stickier situation. Even 100% mortgages are very high interest rates comparitively - and if the market plummets you into negative equity and then suddenly you have a reason you have to move, you're stuffed.

Also, remember to factor in that owning a house is a money pit. There is always something needing money spent on it (and if you don't you then get to the situation where maintenance builds up and all of a sudden you have to spend a LOT to fix it). The costs aren't just the mortgage payments.

I do know that it's not nice to rent and it's so much nicer to have your own place. And to be honest, having equity in our property saved our bacon a couple of times (as did having understanding in-laws) - but I look back and think "what if we hadn't been so lucky, what if the housing market had even just stagnated a bit ... what the hell would we have done?!" and I have nightmares about it...

oh dear floss. you don't deserve to be treated like this

I mean that it is in no way garenteed that we would get it. As I understood it, the money was pretty much running out and would be renewed in April.

I'm not so sure about going easy on him. Counselling is a definite must, granted he might not want to take any grief from you, but a counsellor will make sure that he takes full responsibility for this mess, they won't go so easy on him I hope! God help him if he says no to this. If he does then I would seriously reconsider this relationship.

K, so now YOU are blaming YOURSELF for his disgusting behaviour? 'It's my fault he does this . . . '

I'm gonna quote Dr. Phil McGraw here, 'If money can fix it, it ain't a problem.'

And it sounds like there's a lot more going on here besides someone who would frivilously risk his family's future on a bunch of superfluous purchases.

But how can we afford to go counselling?
The other thing is, can I really afford to go to the MN meet? I have been out with DP twice in 6 months since then, not once alone. I kind of feel I 'deserve' to go, but then its that sort of attitude which has got us so badly messed up in the first place.

floss - how would he behave to you if you had done this? would he be making any effort not to nag or criticise you? why should you have to behave perfectly when he doesn't?

floss - does your workplace have any free counselling on offer? or you could get free counselling from docs. as I understand it Relate has some sort of sliding scale fees depending on what you can afford.

OMG Floss! Are you sure you still want to be in this relationship that is slowly undermining you and imprisoning you?

If you moved out, what would be your financial situation then? You would have none of your dp's debts so presumably you could rent a housing association house and would be free from worry about paying off debts that are not yours.

What will you do at Christmas? Stop buying presents because it might lead to debt?

There are some organisations that give free relationship counselling. I know the CAB do free debt counselling, does anyone know of the free relationship ones?

Hmmm... while I think that relationship counselling is a good idea - I'm not sure that placing blame (either way) is a good plan. If you constantly feel resentful for the mess he's got you in, then that will put a wedge in the relationship (easier said than done I know). Yes, he probably does need to own up and say "I screwed up", yes he does need to be involved in fixing it and dealing with the consequences...

... I'm just patently aware of how easy it is to let spending get out of control then brush it all under the carpet because you're embarrassed or because you're hoping on some miraculous rescue from some source or another. I wonder how much of his not owning up to it is false bravado because he knows he's done bad - all his "I'm not sure I want a mortgage or another baby" strikes me very much of a small child stamping his feet when he couldn't get something due to his misbehaviour and saying "well I didn't want it anyway". They did, but it's face-saving.

That's not to excuse his behaviour, but I can't hate him for it, and for me it wouldn't be a deal breaker on the marriage side of things like some seem to think it is. It's just so easy to let money stuff run away with you

They're not married. And at the mo, Floss is getting all the grief for this, she is excusing her dp, not blaming him and she's putting her life on hold to help him. He's getting an easy deal, so I think the sympathies for him should be put on hold.

Okay, scratch "marriage" and replace with "committed relationship". I'm not saying Floss should take the blame either.

I guess I don't see blame or anger as a particularly helpful response - just as a way to generate more stress and more ill feeling which will just escalate the rows and push them further away from a solution.

Sorry. Will butt out now then

Relate is £36 a session usually BUT they do have a donation type arrangement too where the individual(s) make a reasonable (for them) offer of payment.

Thanks Georgina. I do see completely what you mean. And I found yesterday when I was talking to him about it reasonably I did get much further. I have a temper on me though so I did loose it today. He's gone out to the post office and is back now. He does act like a little boy. He hasn't grown up in many ways, which is obvious. And while part of me would love to take all his money and give him what he is 'allowed' that isn't helping him to grow up is it? I think I need to go down to CAB and see if we can get help from there. Just to hopefully make him face up to things. It would be hard to get him there though TBH.

I agree that counselling would be a very good idea.

I know my post could sound as if I'm suggesting that you "go soft on him". I don't exactly mean that you should let him get away with it.

But from what you have said (and the way my husband has behaved in similar situations)he feels backed into a corner, so is blanking the situation, because if he accepts "getting severely reprimanded" by you, he loses all control and sense of self worth and would feel sort of castrated.

So, you may well be able to get him to come back into this situation by allowing him to come in and properly pull his weight now, rather than forcing him to eat shed loads of humble pie first, the prospect of which may well be scaring him away from the situation and from you, altogether.

I suspect that underneath his supercilious facade, he is absolutely horrified about what he has done - but he is scared that you are so angry that he doesn't dare to expose his vulnerability to you.

I understand that you probably want to beat him up - I would.

But it might be worth trying a new tack (if it isn't working after a week, give up and beat him up). If it means that you end up getting on with each other and you stop having to sort this out alone, it will be worth it.

Yes, I reckon all the stuff about having another baby is about getting back at you for being so furious with him and about being able to retain some power in this situation.

I wouldn't talk about it at all at the moment - he may end up backing you both into a corner where he says things he doesn't mean, just to get back at you, feel that he has some control.

Anyway, now sounds like the wrong time to be thinking about this.

BTW, I also agree with those saying it might not be a good idea to take out a mortgage at the moment.

Mainly because I think you two need to sort out your relationship and how money works within it first.

Best of luck, whatever you decide to do.

Floss,

Re your comment:-

"I know probably some of you (all of you?) are wondering whether its a good idea to get a mortgage and further commit to him. But I have DS and so feel that I should."

That last sentence of yours in particular is telling. If you stay you may well go onto resent your partner even more for the fact that he got you into this mess in the first place. Indebtness like this will affect your son and what is this going to teach him about life and relationships?.

If the debts are not sorted out and if your partner continues to argue and does the ostrich syndrome this debt will spiral even further out of control over the next couple of years (towards £30K with interest on top).

I would say that if he does not curtail his spending habits and fully address why he has run up such a huge debt in the first place, there is no real hope it will be resolved and therefore you and your son face an uncertain future with regards to debt.

I would not think also that any mortgage company would deal with a mortgage application because they will credit check him and see all these debts. As a result they will decline your application.

Thanks both of you. MKU, I do see what you are saying. ATM, I do want to be with him. I don't see this as a reason to leave him. We both love our son and generally things have been getting better in the past few months.

Nothing really needs to be done RE mortgage before xmas anyway, whatever we decide to do. Now I know that isn't enough time to stick to anything but it would be a start. And I will look into the counselling, although other than to point out that I cannot be held responsible for his spending when he does not tell me what he is spending, I don't know quite what it will achieve. He knows that himself really too.

I'll just try and calm down about it all, make sure both of us are saving our butts off, trying to make things better. He has sold some stuff he didn't need yesterday after our original conversation and has suggested that perhaps the £70 toy we were planning to buy for DS was excessive, so provided my mum has not yet brought anything, I was going to see if she wanted to have it come from all of us. So, a good start from him, he seems to be in the right mind set, just as long as he can keep on being there, like you say.

Floss

My DH had a load of credit card debts before we met, He basically likes a lifestyle he can't afford...don't we all rolleyes

When we first moved in together those debts were his debts, then when we bought our first house they gradually became our debts as we had a joint bank account. We then remortgaged to clear debts and raise finance for his own business, brilliant you may think but he paid off the debts and then gradually over time racked up the debts again as he had not cut up the cards.

We have moved house, remortgaged, recently and paid off some of DHs debts, not all. A few weeks ago I opened a letter addressed to him, we open each others mail if looks like a bill, and he had applied for another card.

Well I hit the freaking roof, went completely mental on him and told him to pack his stuff. He handed over all his cards to me and I cut them up and he has said he has almost no willpower to control his spending

Sorry for rambling on but I jsut wnated you to know you are not alone. I honestly believe some people are addicted to spending money and the 'prestige' having credit cards gives. Your DH needs to recognise that he is trying to finance a lifestyle he cannot afford and work out ways to live within a budget.

It is bloody hard and my DH hates having to watch the pennies but he has to do it or me and the kids will be well and truely screwing him over financially