Married but living a totally single, celibate, emotionally separate life

[ostracized]

Hi
Have posted quite a lot about my problems with dh. Have had lots of problems over the years.... It used to be that we would have sex every 6 weeks roughly, and then possibly twice over a period of a few days but then nothing at all for the next 6 weeks... There would be no affection or cuddles or nice words in between. We don't sleep in the same bed as I normally end up sleeping in dds' room when one of them wakes up in the night. Plus I no longer want to sleep in the same bed as dh since it is soul destroying to lie next to someone who cannot be bothered to even put an arm over you, yet finds it very easy to be physically affectionate with our three kids.
We have had a couple of quite bad arguments over the past few months and things have now become totally detached. I no longer go to his bed to initiate sex (which is what used to happen, not that he wasn't willing when this happened) upon the odd occasion because I no longer want to be in a situation where sex roughly 10 times a year (or whatever having sex every six weeks works out at) is the glue that holds our relationship together. I would much rather be able to cuddle and say nice things on a regular basis - and kiss (he does not do kissing at all, only during sex). The other thing is that I find it impossible to talk to him about any of this because he becomes defensive/shouty very quickly and throws "state of house" back in my face (house untidy it is true).
So we are now at a stalemate (except I don't know if he thinks of it this way as we don't talk about it) whereby we are living together, looking after the kids (almost 5, almost 7 and 9 years old) - having an occasional laugh about the kids, occasionally talking about his work and my volunteering at school or what might be on TV, and that's it.

Should add that the thing I dislike about him the most is his short temper and propensity to be very scornful and negative about things. This means that there are lots of things that I don't bother talking about as I know what he is going to say / how he is going to react. Communication is not free and easy between us and I wonder whether in reality we have reached the end of the road and in a situation without kids we would separate and move on.
Next Friday I am going to relate by myself to find out what a counsellor thinks about all of this. The thing is that every time that I think that actually, we do have to separate, I feel physically sick thinking of having to do this to the kids and also be apart from them during the times that dh would have them.
So, do I concentrate on looking after my kids and the house better, my own social life / work (hope to get a job as a teaching assistant) and being as friendly as possible with dh (but not a couple as it were) and just accept that at 42 I will never have a romantic / sex life again :( ???? Dh is 12 years older than me and I think that his attitude is that he just wants to be with the kids.
I suppose the purpose of my post is to ask whether other people live in "relationships" like these which are functional? I would really like an open, equal, communicative and loving relationship with dh but I don't think it is possible.

Hi ostracised,

Re your comment:-

"Next Friday I am going to relate by myself to find out what a counsellor thinks about all of this. The thing is that every time that I think that actually, we do have to separate, I feel physically sick thinking of having to do this to the kids and also be apart from them during the times that dh would have them".

Yes but what is worse, being apart and happier or being together as you are now and feeling completely miserable as a result. The children pick up on all this, they can see the underlying tensions between the two of you even if they cannot express it. You cannot protect them fully from his miserableness that permeates the whole household.

Also what are you both teaching them about relationships here?. The current template you both are showing them is no healthy functional role model for an adult relationship is it?. This is not a functional relationship in any shape or form and has not been so for some considerable time. Would you want your children as adults to have the same sort of relationship that you currently have?. No?. But what you are teaching them is that this is currently acceptable to you.

At least you will be seeing a counsellor and perhaps this person will help clarify your thoughts some more.

You're 42, there's still life in you yet and you're a long time dead!. If you stay with him you are now stopping you from meeting someone new.

Yes I did live in a relationship with a lot of similarities to yours and it functioned ok and I made a happy enough life for myself within it.

My xh left Christmas before last and although at first I was shattered as in spite of everything I loved him I quickly saw it had been no way to live.

Now 14 up and down months later I am glad he left and can see I was closer to exisiting than really living and am far happier than I was.

Our DC were fine because they could see things werent right and we have done all the usual things to make the split as ok as possible.

There are lots of scary things , I am 44 and a SAHM so need to go back to work which is daunting, I am leaving our long term family home soon and on my own. However this way at least I will either be on my own with some dignity or have a chance at being with someone offering those qualities you mentioned

It's not a counsellor's job to tell you what he/she thinks about things. Their job is to tease out what you really feel about it. Help you clarify your thoughts, as Attila said. If you're waiting for someone else to tell you what to do, the first thing you need to do is start reclaiming your own right to make decisions!

Personally I'd probably manage ok in a friendly, romance-free co-parenting arrangement (not everybody could). But I absolutely could not and would not be able to stand one where you can't raise any issues because the other party will throw a strop. That isn't functional at all. That's one party bossing the other around and getting everything his own way because he's prepared to be more unpleasant about it. Except a tidy house, by the sound of it! (But then, what's stopping him from tidying it if it bothers him so much? Do you sabotage his efforts to tidy up as a sort of - possibly subconscious - gesture of defiance? Or does he think raising his voice is an acceptable substitute for lifting a finger?)

Hopefully if the counsellor is a good one he/she will be able to help you pick through what is really happening and suggest some techniques to change the dynamic. I can tell you one thing in advance at no charge: this kind of relationship is not working for you and I doubt whether you either can or should make it work. One at least, preferably both, of you have some changes to make.

Thanks for your answers and ideas. Yes I agree Annie that both of us have changes to make, it's just that I cannot face the idea of talking to dh about anything at all. Maybe a counsellor will help me with techniques it is true. However there seem to be large amounts of mistrust and dislike between dh and I don't know how we get over that. I don't feel free and easy in his company or good enough iyswim - have just taken youngest dd to a party while he took the other two swimming - some of my friends were there as kids only 4 or 5 and not all of them want to be left at a party. As usual in such company I feel totally relaxed, happy and liked and wish I could feel like that at home.....
The untidy house IS an issue and a lot of it of my own making, but whereas dh doesn't want any "stuff" around and considers it "junk", I am very attached to the past and find it difficult to get rid of things. Plus I don't like the way he talks to me about it so dig my heels in. Both of us have done things to damage the relationship and I would be wiling to talk about this on an equal footing, but don't think this is possible for him as he is blaming and considers himself superior I think - he is 12 years older which probably has something to do with it. Plus I don't know whether he will ever be able to do anything about his short temper and somewhat intolerant nature - not saying he doesn't have good qualities - he loves the kids to bits, is very affectionate with them and works very very hard to provide for us. Thing is I would rather have less provision and more friendship and love.... someone who is emotionally open.

willing, not wiling!

Have to deal with more sarcasm than affection and that's what I find gutting. Dh got back from swimming with 2 older dcs and a friend of ds. Everyone starving - I hadn't cooked anything yet (it was about 5:00pm) but dh was not to know how long I had been at home (after taking dd2 to her party) - anyway he looks at the cooker disapprovingly (no food on it). Then he told me he had seen my friend at the sports centre and I asked him if she had seen him (meaning - did you talk to each other) he's all pissed off about this question so I re-iterate it, he says "yeah and she's won the lottery" (?????) dripping with sarcasm, so ended up asking ds if they had spoken to each other. Then shortly after he was doing potatoes and he asked me to put some more in the microwave - I put four in a bowl and showed him to ask if that was enough (bearing in mind I was grilling something, there were potatoes in the pan as well as baked beans) and his response was "don't you wanna eat" - not in a friendly way mind. It's this kind of thing that makes me feel like never talking to him :(.

do you ever blow your top at him

mine does that sarky thing sometimes and i only put up with it for so long then he gets both barrels which generally nips it in the bud

no because blowing my top means he will definitely blow his top back, and possibly sulk for weeks (not joking - before christmas he didn't talk to me for two months following an argument) - plus it is not worth how upset I feel following a bad argument

its time to stop letting him get away with it and get more assertive and sod the consequences

come on, dont get upset, get bloody angry

I agree sourdough, but it feels as if I will only have a "leg to stand on" when the house is totally de-cluttered and clean as then and only then he might listen! Plus he is also more aggressive than me in arguments and in that way he has the upper hand.

he didn't speak to you for 2 months?
He does not deserve your patience. Apart from stability what are you getting out of this relationship?

I wouldn't want to talk to him either :(

No one should talk to you like that. You only get one life, you know. How long do you want to live yours like this?

yes, stability - the whole family being together all of the time, kids don't have to deal with a break up and living between two homes and two people, I don't have to be apart from the kids at all, a nice house that we all live in together, I don't work at the moment and have the luxury of having the time to do a course... I have friends in my area and kids all settled at school...
on a personal level I don't think dh and I are getting anything from being together - of course we have a shared past and are both invested in the kids...

missed your message Kathy - I totally agree about the one life thing... no I don't want to be like this forever... thing is I have always known that dh is difficult and taciturn so I probably should have got out before we had kids???? We have always had ups and downs, it is now in the past few years and definitely in the past year, that we have been on a permanent down.

I suppose what I miss is sex and affection (both physical and verbal) as an escape from life when it all gets too much, a safe place we could both be in.... but somehow dh is on a much shorter fuse than me and our rhythms are totally different.... plus I don't think his parents can have been affectionate with each other at all and to him it just doesn't mean much - this coupled with the fact that we both annoy the hell out of each other...

ostracized - i really feel for you. Your marriage sounds like a mirror image of my own, except my dh also binge drinks, on occasion, once every 2months or so, but that has creatd problems. Tbh i could live with that if it wasnt for the constant negativity, sarcasm, impatience etc and just the feeling that my dh just doesnt like me, let alone love me!

Hi Esme - I'm sorry you feel the same way :(. Do you ever think of separating? Do you have children? How do you cope with your dh's attitude on a day to day basis?
I was lying with both dds just now while they were drifting off to sleep and I was suddenly washed over with a feeling of of course never being able to get divorced, as it would feel like I was killing someone (I suppose I would be "killing" the family unit).... also a feeling of "horror" that I could even consider it. Even though dh and I do not get on, it is as if we are blood family members and therefore of course can never part. I don't know what the way forward is and I suppose that's why I am going to see the counsellor.
Dh was rude again to me while I was putting the kids to bed, and I swear, the way he speaks to me sometimes it is as if I am the least important thing on the planet.

Or rather the most contemptible piece of crap that has even been stuck to the bottom of someone's shoe :(.

ostracized, i have followed all your threads and posted on some of them under a different name

why do you feel that separation is such a crime ?

I just don't get it

this man hates women, and more specifically, you ...how many more examples of this do you need

would you like a daughter of yours to live this way?

or your son to grow up and treat women like this ?

hanging on for your children is a seriously bad mistake

you have been advised of this sooooooo many times, but you refuse to listen

you won't listen to a counsellor either, until the day that your lightbulb comes on

I dunno what that will be though...in the meantime you let your children watch their father treat you like shit

it is very sad, and very damaging for them

If he didn't speak to you for 2 months after a row then your marriage is long dead and buried.

What an example of marriage/family life are your dc learning.

Sorry I think you will be a 1,000 times happier on your own.

Ostracized - I am 41 years old, SAHM with 5 kids under 11. I have indeed thought of separation and divorce. I totally understand what you say when you describe your link with your dh in terms of blood relative, and the thought of divorce being unthinkable. I too tend to think of divorce in these terms as something I could never do, something that only other people do.

The reason I think that way is because my parents separated when I was 13, and I remember clearly the trauma of it. I remember clearly thinking that I didnt care how unhappy they had been together, I just wanted them to stay together for their kids sake, that we needed them to be together more than anything else. I believe that, barring physical and sustained emotional abuse, most kids are oblivious to their parents disatisfaction, especially if their parents are good at putting up a front for the kids. I also belive that my happiness is secondary to my kids stability and well being and therefore find it incredibly difficult to seriously even contemplate splitting up.

But lately, I have been thinking of it more and more often, almost fanstasising about it.

I am so sorry that you are also in this shitty situation, I know what it is like to feel so hurt and belittled by a remark, casual or otherwise, designed to make you feel small. I know that we deserve better than this, but it is not just about us is it? I feel at them moment that staying in my marriage is the lesser of two evils, the other evil being the complete disruption and emtional trauma to the kids of a marriage break up.

In response to your question how do I deal with my dh on a day to day basis, I guess that some times I manage to ignore it, and other times I pull him up for it. Sometimes this lands us in a row and him accusing me of being oversensitive, and other times he will grudgingly acknowledge that he is in the wrong, and apologise very ungraciously. I have great friends in RL who I rant to quite frequently about my dh, they are lovely and keep me sane. And the Anti depressants are helping me too as I feel much stronger in myself now, much more detached from him and his bullshit doesnt seem to get to me as much as it used to.

PeterAndre - thanks for your message - I can't walk out of a relationship (huge undertaking) at the drop of a hat or because lots of people on an internet forum have told me this is what I should do - I think people find support writing here (and are also able to vent which is not always possible in real life) and I have too..... if dh and I do ever separate it will take a huge amount of courage on my part and I'm not there yet...
Plus I hope that the counsellor has some other suggestions other than telling me to leave. The ideal would be dh coming to counselling with me and I'm hoping that the counsellor will help me with ideas on how to convince him this would be a good idea.
The kids know that their dad is short tempered and unreasonable at times... yes I definitely would not want them to have a relationship like ours is at the moment and that is one of the things I will be talking about with the counsellor.
Dh has not always behaved as he is consistently doing at the moment so in addition to him being a difficult, impatient person prone to negativity and rudeness (!), I think his behaviour now is in part a reflection of how non-existent our relationship has become. He feels rejected - he fights back by undermining / ignoring etc...
However short-temperedness has always been there and is a family trait and I would like to learn ways of dealing with this. Also I would like to talk to the counsellor about why on earth I feel so unwilling to discuss any of this with dh - I would like to find my own voice and discover what my needs are so that I can unequivocally discuss these with dh - I hope the counsellor will help me to find the strength, feeling of self-worth, to do this...
It is very hard to feel that someone dislikes us as of course we have to live with ourselves and accept ourselves - however it is also possible that dh feels I do not like him as I quite often don't...
I don't really think it is a question of my "lightbulb coming on".... I don't think separation/divorce is a crime at all (in fact I think lots of relationships come to a natural end and it would be better if society recognised this and made the whole process of co-parenting easier / more socially accepted) but I do think it is very frightening as it is the complete unknown, a bit like looking into an abyss.

ostracized, I recognise so much of what you have described. I'm the same age as you. My marriage differed in few ways, mainly that we shared a bed but nothing else and he used that to insist on regular sex even when I was reluctant, and he was the hoarder, not me.

I ended the marriage just over two years ago when the DDs were 12 and 10. We now live in our own house and they have adjusted well. It is only in the last six months that I have started to realise that the way my DDs talk to each other when they are cross is a direct result of the communication between their parents. I now urge them to be respectful to each other and although it's taking time, they are improving and make friends again very quickly. My ex and I didn't argue in front of them except very rarely but they never saw or heard us being loving towards each other either.

Shortly before Christmas I met a wonderful man who respects, adores and cherishes me. He accepts my shortcomings and loves me all the more for them. I didn't feel that my life was incomplete or lacking because there wasn't a man in it, but now I have met this person I know that I have met the man I will spend the rest of my life with. Sometimes you have to be away from a relationship to be aware of just how dire and damaging it was.

I have read several threads on here where other posters are urging someone to end their relationship. It's not something I would usually do, but in your case I cannot see how your life could be any worse, but I can see how much better it could be. Good luck.

CarGirl and Esme - missed your recent messages - thanks for them. Yes I agree CarGirl - it's not the example of a marriage that I want my kids to have... and also that my "love" relationship with dh seems to have come to an end ... There's a very good book called "coming apart" which talks about all the reasons relationships come to a natural end and that this doesn't need to be a failure - it also lists the symptoms of a relationship that has drawn to a close and I have to say that I ticked loads of boxes! Without kids dh could part in even a friendly way and say, okay, there were nice times together but now we have to move on...

Esme69, I totally relate to everything that you say. My friend whose parents divorced (they actually separated twice as they got back together once) when she was a teenager said the same thing - that she wasn't concerned with how they got on together, she just wanted to live with both of them. I am sorry you are on anti-depressants. Would your dh consider relationship counselling (doesn't sound like it judging by what you say)?