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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Sensitive question...is this ummm....

92 replies

iamstrong · 03/03/2011 22:02

Well i have been putting of asking, not sure I want to know the answer.

Feel stupid asking actually but here goes....

Is it rape if you feel to scared to say no?

Actually 'no' was said but only at first then it's easier to just give in.

Mainly because things have been smashed up before when sex was denied, hundreds of pounds worth of things, leaving DS to walk in on glass being smashed all over the flaw.

Don't even know if it is rape because in the end it was just a case of doing it for an easy life, not that the kicking and punching stopped.

I don't know if it is rape because I don't know if after I gave in I actually wanted it to happen.

OP posts:
PeterAndreForPM · 03/03/2011 23:58

Denial is a very powerful force

Are you going to go back to him ? Please don't.

PeterAndreForPM · 04/03/2011 00:00

Listen to mamazon x

PeterAndreForPM · 04/03/2011 00:04

I have to go to bed now, OP

take care x

but there is always someone here, even if you don't get an answer straight away

Mamaz0n · 04/03/2011 00:12

Shame and embarrassment is very common for victims of abuse. "hoe could i have allowed him to do this to me" "i dont want people to know i am a victim"

it is perfectly normal to feel that way, but you should know that you have absolutly nothing to be embarrassed about.

I hid what was happening at home for years. I always put on the fake smile, played the hard hearted bicth who would never let anyone hurt her. But then when i got home i was a quivvering wreck.
When he started to force himself on me i would fight. hard. But after years of getting beaten to a pulp you learn that he is going to get sex, you just learn that it is easier to let him. But having sex with an inanimate woman whilst she has tears rolling down her cheeks is not sexy. He wasn't lusting after me or just desperate for sex. It was about power and control. Most rape is.

By taking the step you have now, by admitting it to us and yourself, you are taking back that control. You are becomgin stronger with every single post.

What are your plans for now? Is he still in the house? (apologies, i only skimmed the thread)

I am not one of those who will shout at you if you say no. Of course i want you to kick the bastard out on his ear, but if you aren't ready yet then that is fine. Don't feel you can't post.
I can assure you i wont let anyone be mean (im well hard)

How are you feeling now?

iamstrong · 04/03/2011 00:15

NO NO NO, no going back, even if like hes lead me to believe i will be alone forever, no one else will be with me then I'd rather that.

I used to be confident, very and now im someone who when rarely gets time off (from DS) gets themselves in to stupid situations with men. When on and off with XP have been abused by another man, in the sort of very obvious way, that even i can see was wrong.

I'm a lost cause, I keep letting it happen. And now I've started talking i fear all sorts will come out and I might not stop, sorry Blush

Thank you PeterAndre, you too. x

OP posts:
iamstrong · 04/03/2011 00:22

God mamaz I'm so sorry. Someone suggested i read your posts but couldn't find them.

Your story sounds so similar Sad

He's not allowed in the house just because of the damage he caused, I dropped the charges (duh) but evidence was enough with out my say.

It was control and he took mine away, so now my ED is spiraling.

But you've come through it? Emotionally I mean?

OP posts:
AyeRobot · 04/03/2011 00:24

You are so very far from being a lost cause. You might have got into a pattern, but you can change that pattern. In fact, you sound like you are in a great mindset to do that now. Some people never eveb realise that they need to, you know?

And threads go to 1000 posts, so you can talk as much as you like on here. And then start a new one if needs be. And whoever you speak to in real life, well, that's their job.

Better out than in, as my Nanna used to say. (Although she was talking about wind.)

Mamaz0n · 04/03/2011 00:24

Mn is anonymous. you are only ever known by your screen name unless you chose to reveal more.

you are safe to tell us whatever you want.

Your comment about other men abusing you is not uncommon. Victims of abuse have had their self esteem bashed so much they seek affection from unhealthy places. they have their boundaries of acceptable behaviur eroded so much that they slip into being submissive without even realising.

Don't beat yourself up because an abusive man took advantage of your vulnerability.

Weakening you is the first step of emotional abuse. telling you that if you leave you will be on your own forever is such a common thing. honestly i think these men go to abusive cunt school.

When i met my ex i was 19. I was tall and slim but with all teh right curves. I would walk in a bar and literally every man would turn his head to follow me in. When i left him i was an obese, frumpy mess.
He managed to ruin me entirely. Telling me how disgusting i was and yet telling me i was a slag and making men look at me. I used to deliberatly stuff myself full fo chocolates and cake in the hope that i wuld get fat. I wanted to be ugly so men wouldn't look at me so he wouldn't get angry.

then he used to get angry that i was so ugly.

With men like this you try your harest to do what they ask. Do everything to please them so as to avoid their anger. But you can't. They will find an excuse to abuse you. Be that verbally, physically or sexually.

All these negative things you feel about yourself right now are his doing.
You are still that string girl he met. She is just hiding away deep inside. You will be surprised how well she springs back to life now you are free from this man.

Mamaz0n · 04/03/2011 00:26

Oh and yes, i have come through teh light at the end of the tunnel and now basking in the sun.

You will be here sunbathing with me soon enough, i promise. Grin

sharon2609 · 04/03/2011 00:31

It took me a couple of years to stop 'loving' my abusive partner. It will stop..just be strong x

iamstrong · 04/03/2011 00:37

I just don't want to impose my self.

Mamaz your amazing, actually you are. Have you found your strength through counselling?

You sound so sorted and informed.

OP posts:
iamstrong · 04/03/2011 00:38

*actually you all are. Should have said.

OP posts:
Mamaz0n · 04/03/2011 00:41

Not really. I was offered counselling whilst at teh refuge but the lady wasn't able to come for a couple of weeks and, i dunno. It just wasn't me.

It felt weird talking about it then.

But time is a great healer. I have reached a point where i am beyond emotion about it all. It is almost like it didn't happen to me, but to someone else. The mamazon that was in that relationship wasn't me, it was someone else.

Talking it over on MN all these years has helped too. Hearing so many other women describe stories so similar to my own makes you see that it wasn't you, That these men follow a pattern, that it is them that manipulate and control.

It was not your fault, you have done nothing to feel guilty for, and you will get through this.

iamstrong · 04/03/2011 00:42

Did you come to your own conclusions, is it a pattern that fits most cases?

sharon how did you stay strong for those years that you did love him?

OP posts:
iamstrong · 04/03/2011 00:45

How did you regain your confidence and felt again like someone might love you, or is that just a case of time as well?

I just can't see ever being in a healthy relationship. I don't know what one looks like.

OP posts:
Mamaz0n · 04/03/2011 00:45

I now work with women who have lef abusive relationships so i have done a lot of reading on the subject. But also through years of reading literally hundreds of womens stories here. You see the pattern. Almost every story is the same.

it is quite disturbing when you first hear someone else echo what happened to you, and yet it happened to them, by someone completely different. You cant quite get your head around the fact the details all seem to match.

eventually it dawns on you that they are all the same. they think they are being clever but actualy, they are just following the form.

Mamaz0n · 04/03/2011 00:50

Yes. It is mostly time.

Leanring what a good relationship is is difficult. But the more you talk through what you went with, you will get lightbulb moments. These will resonate when you meet any other men. You will find you are able to spot warning signs easier. Little things that you may not have noticed before, will now set off bells in your head.

When you start to notice the things you don't want, you will find it easier to know what you do want.

Confidence will come. After being on your own for a while you learn to love your own company. You get to know yourself better.You start noticing all the things that you can manage all by yourself, you realise that you don't need a man.

And whe you discover that you don't need a man, you are in a better position to hold out for one you choose.

sharon2609 · 04/03/2011 00:59

iamstrong I did cave in just once after about 2 years apart. I had to have contact with him because of my DD. I dont know how I did it really. I think my eyes were opened somehow from being away from him and I saw him for what he was/is....a very sad , enotionally messed up,controlling,violent sad excuse of a man.
It's hard to realise that you dont really love them it's just that they have made you think you love/need them from the years of brain washing.

iamstrong · 04/03/2011 08:10

Your lovely people it's so nice to see that none of your compassion or empathy has been taken away.

can i ask a personal question to who ever feels like answering it? Answers by PM if you prefer.

How did you interact with partners after the abuse, I mean straight after/the next morning?

I only ask because I realised in the night that I was never angry with him. Only happy that he had forgiven me for what ever it was i felt i was being punished for. I would cook him breakfast in bed and try to make the relationship normal. Excessive cuddles and even initiating sex, both NEVER happened. Sex was only ever initiated/forced by him and any other affection was totally denied. Didn't stop me trying though, very hard.

Even when there was very physical evidence of abuse or there had been a hospital visit he was never that sorry, I guess maybe this was part of the reason i felt I had to be forgiven and over compensate.

OP posts:
Mamaz0n · 04/03/2011 08:27

He didn't see any reason to apologise or be sorry. He didn't view what he did to you as wrong, which is why it is very good to hear you have no intention of returning.

Like Sharon, i took my ex back many times.

When i finally left and went to a refuge, he found me after i was re housed. I tried refusing to let him in but he literally broke in. I ended up allowing him to stay because i didn't want the neighbours/landlord finding out.
He of course went back to the same pattern of abuse.

It took a further 6 months for me to escape that time, but that was it. that was the end.

Many many women take a step backwards and so don't feel guilty or ashamed if you do to.

It is like smoking. You know it is bad, you don't want to do it, and yet you are compelled to because it has become such a habbit. It feels totally natural to you to light up.
You know being with these men is wrong and yet you are so conditioned to the abuse that you just fall back into the relationship, evn though you don't want to.

The following morning question will probably differ depending on the woman but to try and apease him is common. You have just suffered yet another attack and you desperatly want to prevent another. You do all you can to try and make him like you, make him see you as anything other than an object to hurt.

However you react is normal. Not one single action is wrong or odd. How you deal with abuse is personal and based on many factors, but never ever feel that it was wrong.

pointissima · 04/03/2011 08:44

OP, Be very clear: this is rape.

It is rape of a particularly nasty variety: it is combined with mental manipulation such that you believe you believe you were a contributory factor ("a bad combination") and are doubting whether you really were raped.

This man is very very dangerous to you and to your DS. You have done nothing wrong. None of this is your fault.

You have been incredibly brave and strong to get out. You have done the best thing for you and your ds. Now you need help to recover. Rape Crisis is a really good place to start.

Good luck; and remember that on any day when it is hard there are kind people here, some of whom will have had direct experience similar to yours

PeterAndreForPM · 04/03/2011 10:36

OP, how are you feeling today ?

I have caught up on the thread and see many wise words here.

I haven't been in your exact situation. I don't know how it feels. But I can imagine. I can apply empathy and understanding based on some other events/situations in my life. The professionals do that too, they are there for you.

Re. the morning-after-abuse behaviour. I can see how that happens. There was a long thread on here recently about how in "date rape" situations, the victim continued to date the perpetrator. That by acting "normally" and in fact over-compensating you try to normalise the situation, somehow erase it in both yours and his mind so that it never happened. Thre was a lot of understanding and nodding heads on that thread.

Keep talking and speak to someone in RL x

Underachieving · 04/03/2011 11:19

Hi iamstrong, like you and Mamazon I am a survivor of a domesticaly violent relationship. I work in the field too (although, I work with adult survivors of rape and sexal abuse, which is slightly broader). Unlike you iamstrong I took my abuser back many, many times. Here is my personal experience of that, in case you perhaps see some paralells.

I had a child with him, so I had to see him regularly for contact. Most of the time I was strong and knew I didn't need him, but there were times I was weak and I begged him to take me back. In hindsight I think I had ignored that he hurt me, he humilliated me and he controlled me. I had gone down the very typical "but he wasn't all bad" way of justifying it to myself, and he wasn't... That's why he was so hard to get away from.
I I felt I just needed him. Without him I felt lost and pathetic and like I needed someone to guide me. I did not trust my own decisions, even small decisions like if I ought to be wearing a jumper today or not. I second guessed everything I thought or felt. It was only a long time later that I realised that I felt like this because he had systematically destroyed my confidence in my decsion making abilities. Even eventually my ability to own my own body.
I stopped going back to him in the end, but if I am brutally honest I am not sure if that's because I became clearer in my own mind what was going on, or because he no longer wanted me as a victim. Maybe it was a combination of both.
Probably one of the most astounding aspects of that relationship was what happened when I actually called the police. Like Mamazon I was young, tall and attractive enough to have done a little modelling. You don't think of strapping gert lassies (well over 6 foot) as being victims. I didn't see myself as the victim type, but he DID hit me, he would pin me up against walls by my throat, it was kind of his signature. So on two occasions I called the police, I told them what had happened and they removed him from the property. The police told me that they had given him a formal warning, now this is the stunning bit, he told me they were lying about the formal warning to placate me and that the police had told him that I was enough to drive anyone to violence and that to tell me if I did it again they would arrest me. I'm far from an idiot, but do you know what, I believed him. I believed him for over a decade actually. I have just had to do a very enhanced record disclosure for something and there, in black and white on the page, is that he was warned twice for assaulting me. The third time he was warned he would have been charged and punished, no wonder he put so much effort into convincing me that calling the police was futile.
I differ from Mamazon in that I have had counselling, or to be more specific psychotherapy. When I found out he was abusing our then six year old daughter it blew my world to peices. I was eventually diagnosed with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, 50% of single rape survivors and 75% of multiple rape survivors will have some symptoms of PTSD. I had always thought it was just me he had a problem with too. That I was in some way repsonsible. But then I would think that if you look at it carefully...
As I said before he systematically destroyed any faith I ever had in my own ability to do anything right. He was not the most violent of abusers, he never broke any of my bones, he never even left me with particularly identifiable marks. What he did though was called into question everything I ever did, or thought, or chose and made me doubt it. At first, like most DV victims, I thought he was angry about the issue at hand. It took me quite a while to see that he was angry, the issue at hand just gave him the cover to let it out. It was wrong when I wore a skirt to work in the pub (because I might get the attention of other men), but it was also wrong when I wore trousers because I was "clearly doing it to mock" him. I had 3 jobs, I worked a 72 hour week. He had one, a 30 hour week. In hindsight why did I not question why I had to let him control the household budgets? I didn't though. Because he had destroyed my faith in my own mind. It started with small things like trousers, then gradually escalated to the slightly surreal like the mornings over breakfast when I would be dazed and tramatised from the rape the night before and he'd say "what's the matter Dear". At first I would incredulously stammer "you, you, you hurt me" and he would appologise lavishly and look all concerned and swear that if I had only said no he would have stopped. I screamed no most of the time at first, I kicked, I fought back. It made no difference, he would roll me face down and pin my arms. I learned quickly that face down is worse, there are more painful palces he could find to stick it if I were face down and eventually I stopped fighting. I may have been working as a park ranger felling 30 foot trees without a chainsaw during the day, but this man, with all his anger, was much stronger. I realised in the end that the morning affection was nothing more than a way of getting me to doubt myself. But if I didn't show the right affection and neediness in the morning then the next night would be worse. He was doing a lot of that, changing one thing or another to get me to doubt myself, the term for it is Gaslighting (after a play).
Because of what he did to my confidence and self esteem I did feel lost without him. I did not feel like this confident capable young woman I was projecting to the world, I felt secretly useless. Pathetic, in need of a master I suppose, albeit in a less dramatic way. When he treated me with disdain on the doorstep the old reactions kicked in or being deserate to please him. I practically begged him to take me back. It is emabarrassing thinking back.
I thought for years that it wasn't real Domestic Violence. I felt somehow that DV was measured in the severity of the womans injuries and the meekness of her character (meek has never been me). So if she was a timid little librarian and the big bad boyfriend put her in intensive care then THAT was real DV. His hand round my throat a few times and his inability to hear "no" in the bedroom wasn't the same I thought. If I didn't have injuries to show for it then it wasn't domestic violence. But it was.

I think you might find a few bits of that you relate to and I hope if you do I have added enough explaination of why those thought processes occur. I could go on but his post is too long already.

On a side note, that book someone already mentioned, Why Does He Do It by Lundy Bancroft is an excellent choice. Also slightly on a side note both Rape Crisis or Womens Aid will be able to help refer you to counselling and it can be a revelation in understanding those parts of your own reactions that confuse you. You will, hopefully, find it enlightening.

PeterAndreForPM · 04/03/2011 11:32
Sad
SmashingNarcissistsMirrors · 04/03/2011 13:24

iamstrong - it's taken me the best part of four decades to work out what a healthy relationship is so well done for starting to make steps toward it now. can i suggest though that if you are single you don't even consider going into another relationship until you feel more emotionally healed and stable.

you say you still love your abuser. well can i suggest that you don't actually love him but rather you've learnt to call the feelings you have for him 'love'. real love involves mutual respect and trust. this man does not respect you and you surely cannot respect and trust him. the giddy feelings you have for him are the result of emotional manipulation and a sense of need on your part.

you need to be able to feel whole and fulfilled on your own with a solid circle of support in the way of caring friend and family and your own interests before you can even think of having a relationship.

good luck.