On verge of nervous breakdown with P and his mother.....

[vergeofbreakdown]

Hello, I have namechanged from my usual more silly name as I fear this may get a bit recognisable.

I'm at the end of my tether with the issues in my relationship (2 young DC) and the way I feel my MIL compounds them.

I guess this is a sort of cry for help. I have been leaning on a very good friend from work, but I cannot just keep burdening her. Looking for opinions on what I can do as she is remaining pretty sympathetic but impartial. Although she is "my" friend she has met P a few times so obviously doesn't want to say anything really bad against him.

Basically my P is (mostly) a good man and 95% of the time reliable and does help with housework etc. We have some problems where he thinks I'm too confrontational and our sex life is strained as I have body-issues not related to him but they make me really shy and almost scared of sex. He drinks a couple of cans of lager a few times a week after DC in bed which I have no problem with (I drink on weekends) , but if he goes out with mates he sometimes doesn't know when to stop and ignores responsibilities the next day which is a huge problem for me. Maybe happens once every 2 months, but still not good enough.

Last night he was going to watch something on his mates Sky after he finished work at 11pm and stay the night there as he was taking the car. MIL had DCs overnight. He was to sober up by morning and collect DC's at teatime. However he phoned his mum in morning to ask her to bring them down on train (she doesn't drive, and he has our car) as he was still drinking (at 8am!!!!). She just does it like a total doormat . It is the same with everything. He just relies on her to pick up the pieces with his own responsibilities and she just lies down and takes it. It drives me insane. He drives me insane.

But every time we set down boundaries as a family of 4 she will undermine me.
For example, P works long hours with the firm paperwork etc and I also work. We were never seeing each other because of his long hours and I felt like he was missing his DC growing up. So eventually after much heated discussions we agreed he would take at least 1 day off a week to be with us. When we were visiting his mother, she asked why he wasn't doing any overtime and he told her what we had agreed. She said "Nonsense! Men who work never see their families - that's life" Then she turned to me and said "Do you want him to be a house-husband or something? I'll bet your dad was working when you were young, don't talk nonsense!"

I was

She makes comments about how she things childminders are unsafe for children and wrong IN FRONT OF MY DD WHO ATTENDS AN AFTERSCHOOL CM!!!

She looks after the youngest when me+P are working then if I don;t like a descion she has made unilaterally (with or without P) she tells me that I should be a SAHM then if I want to have have all the say in my child's life!

She calls me when she can't get P on the phone and she is hysterical if my phone is off for a couple of hours. Saying things like "I just want to speak to my son" . When I ask "are you ok?" or "what is the problem?" she will say something like "It's a private and personal matter between me and my son" - Well why the f are you phoning me then?!

She seems to think I'm some money-grabbing bitch who is trying to use her son when actually he is the one who is not taking his responsibilities seriously at times!

I bit my tongue for so long as she looks after the DC a lot and seems to adore them. But recently I can't take any more. Today I told her she is enabling him by taking on his responsibilities for him and that it's not good for anyone, least of all him. All I got back were replies from him and her that I was to apologise for "abusing" her!

She was meant to be bringing my DC back at 6pm. Waited til 7.15 then phoned her. She then announced she is just going to put them to bed there as she is worried about P as he called from callbox to say he "fell asleep on bus and his phone got stolen" (what a load of utter bollocks i replied and asked why nobody had bothered to contact me after my work finished at 5.30), then got the reply "Stop calling my son a liar, listen you to me lady don't contact me again bad mouthing my son" and now she won't tell me where he is.

This doesn't happen often with P but this is really making me lose respect for him totally and I think I want us to split because of it. Although he won't ever talk about it because his mother reassures him that "you don't need to answer to anyone son"

It happens with her all the time though. She said to me last week that all I care about is money and children should come first!

I try to be strong but I'm just getting swamped by it all. The whole situation is making me physically ill. Sweats, shakes, feeling dizzy/faint, sick a lot etc. If I stand up to him, we can usually work through issues if I make it clear I won't tolerate such-and-such and he will change it (ie-the no days off thing) but if I stand up to her I just get dogs abuse from both of them telling me to stop "bullying" her.

I'm so confused and just don't know what to do. I feel almost like I'm not allowed a say in my own children's lives sometimes.

Sorry about extreme length of post. Helped to get it all out !

You sound much more in control now and that's good.

Just keep a steady head and you should be fine. I'm really not likiung the fact that when you stood up to him about picking up YOUR kids he responds 'not an option'. That is outrageous.

Hope you find the time to log all of these incidences, particularly ones in relation to him going awol and he enabling mil to keep your kids from you.

They treat you like this because you let them.

Where is your pride? Pack his shit while he is gone, talk to a lawyer and when he comes back tell him to fuck off to Mummy's.

If he gives you any grief call the police. Also call your school and childcare and tell them that your children are under no circumstances to leave with anyone who you do not give written permission to do so.

See a lawyer ASAP to sort out residency and contact, I wouldn't be letting them go with him before this was all formally sorted out because it sounds like not getting them back is a possibility.

I agree with you. The main issue is her husband. If she feels her mother-in-law is taking over, then stop using her as much. I think her mother-in-law loves her grand children and son so will do anything for them. I wonder if she's thought about counselling for her lack of confidence. It might help talking to someone who's not emotionally involved. She'll be professionaly trained to help her to find her own answers.

I used to have hangups about my body, and was teased about it. I now think to myself there is always someone prettier than me, uglier than me, fatter than me, skinnier than me but I'm OK. My family and my children love me and that's what counts.

It sounds like you want to leave, but are frightened to do so in case DH and MIL take your dcs away from you. And of the hurt you will feel/getting your heart broken. It is good that you got the advice from the women's legal rights. When you said you would collect the kids at 5.45, he said "not an option". You need to use the law. He is deciding what will happen and that is not right. Being more confident and assertive will not be enough. Because he is abusive and controlling. Nor will learning to drive.

although I totally agree with you in principle Morloth (and it would be WONDERFUL to be able to do this!), abusers can be extraordinarily vicious if you treat them with contempt: they have a bottomless pit of nastiness at the ready and will use it, endlessly. Leaving an abuser has to be handled with extreme care - not just for your psychological and practical safety but also for your physical safety. Abusers are essentially narcissists and if you've ever met one or had the misfortune to be involved with one you know that they will stop at nothing (and I mean NOTHING) if you humiliate or even powerfully assert boundaries - it has to be done subtly, iron fist in a kid glove stuff. To be nasty towards them is to up the ante. I'm not saying to bow and scrape - no, the model you described would, say, be an excellent model to have in your head - but that you must realise you are dealing with someone who could be - and often is - dangerous. It's not a level playing field. Plus you have been subjected to extremely destabilising psychological torture over a period of time that is designed to totally undermine your reality, identity etc - you are probably quite ragged by the time you decide to leave and not full of health and strength - the strength comes from the survival instinct, which brings its own clarity, not necessarily a clear head and heart.

however, OP, it sounds like your head is in fact largely clear and that the main 'trauma' (if you like, or horror) is coming out physically. Although, this past week he has managed to establish the deadly peg of the terror of losing your children - his behaviour and actions have clearly threatened this: it is designed to terrify you as he knows this will have the maximum effect to destablise you. that's one of the things abusers are after - to keep you off balance at all times.

then he comes home, satisfied that you've 'got the message' (which he lavishly underlined, making you beg a bit to confirm his dominance) and doesn't want to hear any more about it: not an option re "you will do what you are told, you will obey me and learn compliance, or I will take away your children". it's a potent threat and he knows it.

giveitago Thanks, I do feel more in control although thinking back on yesterday when I said I feel 'immmature' for being scared of hurt I was thinking about it, and MIL always makes out I'm immature. She told P I was "not ready" to have another baby when I had DC2!!!! And P does say things like "I'm a man, I don't deal with teenage issues like you"
So maybe it does sink in a bit. It is exhausting trying to fight back all the time and not let them make me believe these things about myself.

Morloth I am not letting them anymore. Obviously I cannot just 'pack his shit' etc when he lives here. Also, he has full PR so the only one of them I could stop the school from allowing pick up is MIL.

mumtalktalk
I think her mother-in-law loves her grand children and son so will do anything for them I don't know what you mean by this exactly, but if you were meaning that she is just an innocent grandmother caught in the middle then read back on some of the things she has said/done.

a1b2 Thanks, you are probably right. I do love him and he has many good points and life is not black and white, but I have now come to the realisation myself that all the bad ones are not worth living with and spending my life like this. I will leave him if the disrespect continues as I can't bear it any more. This is what I think will happen, I don't hold out much hopes for years of ingrained behaviours to be changed.

xxxx

Thanks humanheart I think I cross-posted there. I think you are right. I can see all the things he does but still having trouble seeing him as an "abuser" . I do think the disappearing until someone 'gets the message' thing is completely deliberate though - he does it with his mum too.

Do you have any pointers as to the best way to extract myself should I want/need to? I am truly terrified of angering either of them in case they attempt to take children, but I find it really hard not standing up for myself and fighting back, although if I do that I always have it turned on me that I am "an abusive ball-breaker" (him) or "I will not take any more use and abuse from you lady" (her)

Oh gosh - wouldn't it be easy if we could all send them packing.

It's not that easy and it is often a case of putting up with shit because a) the shit comes by stealth and you've gone quite a way down the road before you realise what actually is happening and b)when you have kids you don't want them to suffer and can end up (mistakenly)'protecting' your kids by taking the crap for the sake of peace.

OP - I was in your position and I was terrified of losing my kid. When I went back to work when ds was 15 months old I arrived home one day in my first week to dh who informed me he was taking ds overseas to mil's for two weeks. Informed. Unbelievable, particularly given we'd just come back from her place. There was no need for another visit overseas when we'd just 4 weeks before come back from a trip. This (imo) was because I was now working so could be pushed out of the way. DS was 15 months old and of course I blocked it as if I didn't (and he was way too young anyhow) it would set the scene for mil snapping her fingers for dh and ds to go over and it would be harder to stop. i could well imaging coming home from work one day and seeing a note saying he'd taken ds overseas for a stay.

The fallout was awful because the harder I said no the harder mil pushed dh to do it (and she never ONCE spoke to me at all). I got 'my way' - but at great cost to our 'marriage'. Looking back I can see I was paranoid but reasonably so and although I now KNOW for a fact NOW that in the event of a divorce dh is unlikely to get full custody as it's plainly (and painfully) obvious and (evidencible) that he cannot even start to cope with looking after ds even though ds is now older and at infant school (plus I've documented all the shit), I'm still wary of a divorce in case he's right and i'm wrong and I know that dh feels the same. I think this happens in alot of crap marriages.

And those who think op's mil is perhaps just a very loving grandma might want to think again because it's not in the best interest of a child to be kept away from it's loving mother at the grandma's say so.

Fast forward a few years and things have calmed down. mil no longer demands her 'rights' to the same degree but things do still go mainly her way. They are the victims and I'm the bitch. It's all done by manipluation.

We are basically seperated but living together and although there's relative calm, it's very lonely and I do tiptoe around as I don't want things to kick off. I feel my entire being in this marriage is to enable dh as a parent. Part of the calm is that ds has started school which means that ds can no longer use him as a shield as he's at school and that means if dh kicks off I can kick off back. It's not great as it's all very manipulative and game playing and what I'd say it's EXHAUSTING.

OP - I sincerely hope that you find the strength to end the nastiness you're going through as do you really think that even if your dh had a change of personality you could really get past how he's treated you, your marriage and your children?

I have no pointers except you need to be tougher and take on board what the legal advice was in that you appear to be in a good position. Documenting the abuse (secretly) may help you to focus and may be useful in any legal proceeding. You need to be less scared. Can your family help you?

Thanks giveitago Your post totally resonates with me, although it must have been scarier for you since your MIL is abroad , mine is in the same city as us.

What you said about being terrified of a divorce because of the possibility that maybe, just maybe he would get residency, is exactly how I feel. I do not really have much family (my dad and his side are not interested, even in my DC, and my mum is dead and her side do care but live far away and don't want to interfere) so P and MIL seem to think they are the "better option" and I'm pretty sure he would fight me tooth and nail for custody. I wouldn't even mind joint access (although only if it was a legal agreement) but I'm sure they would push for more. It's almost like they don't see me as a person at all

They are the victims and I am the bitch Ditto here.

It's not great as it's all very manipulative and game playing and what I'd say it's EXHAUSTING That is how it is here. I've always wondered what a normal, easy relationship would be like. sigh.

I could perhaps forgive him if he turned a corner but I doubt that will happen. I think he has been conditioned by his mother to behave this way (no boundaries, not used to not getting his own way and will do anything to get it, superiority complex, manipulative etc) and although he is an adult now and obviously responsible for his own actions and behaviour, he has not evolved from that. I believe one of his ex girlfriends threw him out (her house, no DC) and never spoke to him again because of an incident similar to this.

So verge then you know where you're at.

My dh isn't as bad as yours on that front as he does sort of realise that ds needs his mum. Your dh doesn't seem to understand this at all and seems to think his dm is a better option. Very arrogant of him and he's prioritising his mother over his own children here.

Ensure that you are not too shy to ask for help. WA are really very helpful indeed and you should be in touch with them.

glad to hear from you Verge - I know I may appear OTT but having been where you are, I feel nervous. I suppose I learnt some things the hard way and I am so wary of others experiencing the same, making the same mistakes.

your average Joe on the street just doesn't get this (understand) OP and will probably never get it unless they experience it at close quarters.

as for strategies to leave: an excellent, comprehensive list is on the womens aid website. don't know how to do the [here] thing but it's not difficlt to find. I did it (left) a long time ago (about 18 years ago) so the details are hazy - hopefully someone with a fresher memory will post in more detail. though the list is fantastic, drawn up by people who know their stuff.

I know it's difficult to see him as an 'abuser', particularly as the abusive elements are not always apparent (usually bcs he doesn't feel threatened and feels he is controlling the show so all's well). I loved my husband, very deeply - it was all very hard to face.

but see, I'm out. I got out (with my children, who stayed with me until they grew up and left home). He was a very powerful, very wealthy, man so it wasn't exactly an easy road. But the sense of freedom was intoxicating, surreal. I was alive! out! free! It wasn't that hard when it came to it (someone recently posted on MN that it was a soft landing - yes, that's a good description), it was the run-up that was hard. I think my heart beat fast when I read your original post bcs you were in the middle of an attack. Took me a while to get that though. See? even though I have experienced this first hand, extensively studied it and supported countless women through it over decades, I still don't see it straight away sometimes. maybe that's a good thing - don't want to be thinking every bloke is an abuser eh?

Verge, I really don't understand why you say you will leave if he disrespects you again- do you really believe that he's acting respectfully all the time he's at his mother's refusing to allow you access to the children and refusing to tell you what the hell he's doing? Even if he's not doing it to your face, his behaviour is still utterly disrespectful.

Please, please do continue to use the services of Women's Aid and the legal advisors. They truly are there to help people in your position. Your fear of P and MIL getting custody of the children is completely understandable- these are the people who can advise about how to protect yourself and your children, they know how the system works and they understand how abusers operate.

It sounds as though your P and MIL are trying to make you doubt your own sanity and competence, whereas to us you come across as somebody trying to do your absolute best for your children whilst also running a business and a home- and all whilst living in absolute terror of the control P and MIL have over you. I really do hope you can find the strength to find a resolution that works for you and the children.

Go talk to a family lawyer.

Get it all sorted out, leave the house yourself if you must.

But nothing is going to change until you do. Why should he/they change? They have a great set up here.

Once you have split you absolutely can get court orders about who can pick up the children and where they can be taken and when they should be brought back. In the meantime I would contact the school. Because once he realizes you mean business they are going to try to grab the kids.

He is treating you like an incubator/skivvy not his wife and mother of his children. His mother is not your problem, he is.

Hi Verge. The body issues you talk about - they seem to be a representation of your lack of belief and confidence in a part of yourself and/or a sense of shame at being who you are? Which is why these people have been able to bully you perhaps for so long? I'm wondering what sort of messages your family gave you about yourself as you were growing up?

Standing up for yourself here and learning to love who you are, in body and mind, must go hand in hand I think for you to get to the position where you can be happy?

thinking of you today Verge

Thank you x

Yes, it seems like they are trying to make me doubt both my sanity and my competence.
Both of them make comments about how I am apparently a 'loony' at times and comments to each other and to me about my parenting abilities. Like how giving DD toast for breakfast as it is quicker is neglectful and I should be giving her porridge etc. Just to name one. Oh, and also how DD prefers and is happier at MIL's than at home etc.

The one saving grace I suppose is that I DO see it for what it is - absolute nonsense. If I believed what they say I would be suicidal by now!

Thanks I did not know that Women's Aid have legal advisors. I will call them but may have to be from call box as my mobile is really expensive for those 0845-y numbers - I spent £30 last week on it to the gas company

I have often said to him in arguments that I believe he just thinks of me as an "incubator" (well I used the word 'grow-bag'!) to provide him and MIL with much wanted children or grandchildren. He always swears this is not the case but it certainly seems like it to me.

Last night he turned up at 4pm and did talk to me and did eventually admit that last weekend AWOL stuff was wrong and promised that he would not do it again (I do not believe him and I'm somehow un-phased by his promise). He also said that he does not believe that he monopolizes all decisions about the children and gave an example where he said he was not happy about them getting the MMR immunisation but told me to go ahead and do it anyway if I wanted. Wow - one example in 5 years. He says it is just because he is "passionate" about his children's welfare. yeah right. I said where was that passion last weekend when you were supposed to pick them up but chose to go out with mates instead and go AWOL? Maybe you should try being a parent rather than delegating it to your mother?
Probably not the most helpful things to say but I just couldn't stand there and validate his lies.

I don't know what is going to happen now. I certainly cannot just throw him out as although house is mine, he is registered as living here and does pay half the bills. I could probably manage them just about on my own with tax credits (according to entitled to website) but my job is not that stable right now so another worry. I will keep gathering legal info re-custody and how to get him out should I decide to though.

Eurostar, you have probably hit on something there. I have been through things in my life which have made me into a strong person in myself iyswim, but not really when it comes to interacting with others assertively. I feel strong in myself but feel conditioned to "take shit" and just deal with it, to put up barriers so it won't affect me. but it does a bit.

I was raped when 16, and other trauma and did have a problematic relationship with my father, who is/was very overbearing. We don't talk much now (maybe 3/4 times a year) My ex was EA when I was younger I would be so depressed believing every vile thing he said about me as I felt 'damaged'. When I left him I realise that this debilitating suicidal depression I had been suffering from magically lifted a couple of months after I left (no DCs, just lived together).

Thanks for the support xx

op - re telephone try saynoto0870.com for "real" number alternatives to 0845

thanks Axis - love the name btw x

verge

Womens Aid is a freephone number

0808 2000 247

I would also suggest you read a copy of "Toxic Inlaws" written by Susan Forward. You can buy a copy of it on Amazon.

I would also say that your man is as much a part of this problem as his toxic mother is.

Yes he definitely is. I'm too exhausted to post but I nearly threw him out tonight and defeated x

sorry to hear you had a rough time last night Verge. Keep going, you'll get there (wherever that is): step at a time. so sorry to hear some of your very upsetting and painful history