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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

DH has lots of women friends WWIFN?

54 replies

Polecat2011 · 18/01/2011 16:25

New on here. My DH makes friends with women and never men. He is not open about these friendships, and I seldom get to meet the women, most of whom he works with, often a long way from home. He gives them small value gifts to do with their hobbies. Is this what WWIFN means by the first stage of an affair, ie, mirroring. I believe he pretends to be fascinated by their hobbies, mostly cooking, or wine or travel, which he does enjoy.

Should I object? I am nervous as people occasionally comment that he is flirtatious. His previous marriage ended on account of his adultery.

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LittleMissHissyFit · 18/01/2011 16:30

Sadly I think this phrase is the all important one:

"His previous marriage ended on account of his adultery."

madonnawhore · 18/01/2011 16:31

How do you know about these women if he's secretive? How have you managed to find out about the gifts, etc?

Polecat2011 · 18/01/2011 16:32

LMHF I nearly left that sentence out. Would it have made a difference if I had?

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Polecat2011 · 18/01/2011 16:37

Madonnawhore, I occasionally read his e-mails. He does not know that I can. Maybe he suspects. For example, after Christmas and New year, he obviously made an arrangement to see a female friend for lunch. I can not find his e-mail to her ( or maybe he phoned), but I saw her response, apologising for not being able to meet up. Before Christmas, I saw an e-mail from her thanking him for an expensive bottle of wine. `I feel uneasy about it.

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toomanystuffedbears · 18/01/2011 16:42

"His previous marriage ended on account of his adultery."

I think there is a better chance of him wanting you to be a wife who will 'put up with it' than there is of him honoring a monogamous relationship. Imho, that type of man won't change.

You are home base, but apparently not the only base.
Sorry.

If you are not a swinger yourself, then, yes, object to maintain your own sense of self-respect.

overmydeadbody · 18/01/2011 16:45

If he is secertive about it, and doesn't openly discuss things like meeting them for lunch/getting them presents, then I would be worried, given his history.

ItsGraceAgain · 18/01/2011 16:46

Polecat, are you a young woman living in a repressive country? Your OP puts me in mind of a thread that distressed me greatly.

Sorry if I'm wrong about that. Of course your concerns are valid. Apart from snooping on him, what do you propose to do about making your life happier?

madonnawhore · 18/01/2011 16:47

pretty hard to call him on it when he doesn't know you know. does anything else about the way he behaves make you suspicious?

Polecat2011 · 18/01/2011 16:53

If I raise the issue, he will realise that I can read his e-mails and he will prevent me. He would minimise if I confronted him. He will ask me why men cannot have female friends. I have no answer. I have no evidence that his relationships are more than I have said. But I still feel uneasy.

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LittleMissHissyFit · 18/01/2011 16:54

if he has cheated once, then it's likely.

Having female friends is fine, but if he is keeping them at a far distance, and excluding you from it all, being secretive, then it doesn't look good.

Have you ASKED him about it?

Grace I'm hoping this is not that poster, I know the one you mean. Polecat says she's new.

Polecat2011 · 18/01/2011 16:57

Cross posted. No Grace not a repressive country.

Yes, Madonnawhore, years ago he used to go out for short walks (say 20 - 30 mins) with or without the dog. I felt sure he was out making phone calls. Strangely on one such occasion, whilst we were abroad on holiday, he came back having lost his wedding ring. He said it must have got lost when he took off his glove to do some shopping.

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LittleMissHissyFit · 18/01/2011 17:06

Does he leave his phone lying about or is it practically surgically implanted?

I have to ask, was he already divorced when you met him, or did your relationship start as an affair?

LittleMissHissyFit · 18/01/2011 17:08

Also, without being too specific, what does he do for a living, is it sales based/client/relationship based?

I.e is it part of his job to schmooze clients?

Polecat2011 · 18/01/2011 17:13

LMHF he was separated from his wife when I met him, but was living with his girlfriend. He didn't tell me he was co-habiting, and made out he was living alone.

Part of his job is to schmooze clients, but some of his female friends are not clients but colleagues.

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WhenwillIfeelnormal · 18/01/2011 17:19

Okay first off, because it is often blatantly misunderstood, I believe that opposite sex and same-sex friendships with someone who is gay, are life enhancing and I wouldn't be without them.

However, all such friendships should have some boundaries, because it would be wholly disingenuous to pretend that it is possible for those friendships to cross the line, especially when that friendship is new.

These are the factors that make such a friendship unsafe. If there is:

  1. Secrecy, either about the existence of the friendship or the interactions within it.
  1. Physical chemistry.
  1. A situation when the friend knows more about the person's marriage, than the spouse knows about the friendship. Typical of this are when intimacies that are normally reserved for a romantic partner are being shared with the friend, or when the attached person is complaining about their dissatisfactions with their marriage, either real or manufactured for the purposes of this friendship.

From what you've said, these are secret friendships and we don't know the rest. There's no earthly reason for keeping a friendship secret from a spouse, unless that spouse is irrationally jealous and would try to forbid any friendships with the opposite sex.

However, if this is the case, there are more pressing problems than infidelity and it is far healthier for the non-jealous spouse to confront the issue, reassure and demonstrate transparency and openness, encourage one's spouse to meet the friend and maintain the right to have safe friendships.

Another general rule of thumb in these situations is to ask oneself "Does this friend wish my marriage harm?" This is what's meant by the term "friend of the marriage", a ubiquitous term for someone who is benign and wishes no harm.

What often happens is that these friendships start and there is a process of mirroring eachother's interests and values. However, since this also tends to happen in safe friendships, no great danger is perceived, but if physical attraction is also present and the spouse at home is being disparaged by either friend, the warning claxons should be going off.

If you are already invading your partner's privacy and finding evidence of secrets, only you can tell us why you think he is keeping these secrets. If you're someone who is perfectly relaxed about safe friendships with women, but think your partner is an opportunist and flirt, there's more reason to worry. If on the other hand, you know yourself to be irrationally jealous and insecure, confront that issue first, because sometimes it leads to the thing you fear most, anyway.

LittleMissHissyFit · 18/01/2011 17:32

"He didn't tell me he was co-habiting, and made out he was living alone."

This is really significant. You know that it is too I'm sure. Ok so he wasn't married, but living with a girlfriend and getting involved with you is not a good foundation for you to trust him at all is it?

The client/colleague thing is also significant as clearly he doesn't HAVE to impress co-workers as much as he ought to make an effort with clients, certainly in some fields.

I feel for you my love, I really do, I do hope you can find a way to bring up the subject and solve this situation.

Now off to read WWIFN's post to see what someone who really knows what she's talking about makes of this Grin

Polecat2011 · 18/01/2011 17:35

WWIFN thank you for your long post. I have never had an affair and had assumed that nice people did not. I assumed that he loved me and that he would be faithful.

I was never jealous, let alone irrationally jealous, though it is not impossible that I am becoming overly suspicious on account of things said to me by his colleagues( at parties after a few drinks they say more than they would otherwise). I have even heard one colleague tease him about flirting and attempting to seduce a very junior colleague.

Also, some of the complaints he used to make about his first wife now worry me. For example, he used to say that the marriage was over, and that he slept on the sofa, before his adultery. I had assumed that this was his choice, and was an arrangement. However, now he drinks quite a lot, and falls asleep in drink, on the sofa. If I try to awake him he gets irritable and says not to wake him as he cannot go back to sleep. Consequently, he sleeps mostly on the sofa. He may or may not join me during the night if he needs the bathroom.

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Polecat2011 · 18/01/2011 17:43

That last sentence should read, "He may or may not join me during the night, if he awakens and he needs the bathroom,."

WWIFN, I have found that when I meet any of his female friends, some of them are very uncomfortable with me.

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spidookly · 18/01/2011 17:46

He a drunk and a philanderer.

You can't "sort" this.

You can either put up with it, or you can leave.

Polecat2011 · 18/01/2011 18:03

I don't think he has a drink problem, though I am no expert. He falls asleep tired and after a drink. Likewise, I have no proof that he is philandering, if that means having extra marital sex. However, I don't like the behaviour I do know about.

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ItsGraceAgain · 18/01/2011 18:05

Look, some people can put up with philandering as long as it doesn't interfere with their own life. You are not one of these people - you're going through his emails and worring about it. In fact, you're trying to convince yourself it's not true, aren't you?

He gets so pissed he passes out in the living room.
He 'lost' his wedding ring while out on a pretext.
He hangs out with women who are uncomfortable around you.
He cheated on his ex.
He resists telling you about his activities, would be angry if he knew you read his email: he's secretive.

He is cheating on you. He always has been. Everybody knows about it except you. If you can't bring yourself to open your eyes or your mouth yet, open your ears. LISTEN to what his friends are trying to tell you. At least a few of them will be dropping hints as strongly as they know how to! Or, be brave and ask them.

FWIW, I'm very relaxed about mixed-sex friendships but you can tell when there's something 'off' - as you have done. Moreover, a marriage in which one partner deliberately hides their life from the other, for whatever reason, is not a marriage. I'm sorry.

Make an appointment at the GUM clinic for a set of STD tests. You owe it to your future health.

Polecat2011 · 18/01/2011 18:20

Oh God, Grace, how can you be so sure?

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ItsGraceAgain · 18/01/2011 18:23

The last four things on my list don't all happen together for any other reason :(

madonnawhore · 18/01/2011 18:27

Polecat honey it doesn't look good I'm afraid. I think you know this deep down don't you? It was a massive red flag that he lied to you about his relationship status when you first got together, and I think because you swallowed whatever justification he gave, he's been lying to you ever since.

At best, he is totally disengaged from this relationship, a proven liar and has a drink problem. You guys hardly ever share the same bed because he gets drunk and passes out on the sofa?? That's dysfunctional and symptomatic of issues with alcohol. You shouldn't be telling yourself that any of this is ok.

Polecat2011 · 18/01/2011 18:33

I thought you would all tell me I was overreacting. I thought I was too suspicious. I'm shocked.

He always has "explanations" for his behaviour. I guess they all do.

How can I end a marriage because my DH has women friends. I have no proof of more.

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