So do almost ALL abusive parents deny it then?

[NemoTheRedNosedFish]

Just curious!
My mother and stepdad deny everything and for years I kind of took their side against myself.

I blamed myself and thought that I had been raised they way I was because I was a 'bad' child. (I wasn't).

When confronted with anything to do with anything they did wrong, they come out with pathetic excuses for very basic neglect (I never brushed my teeth or got bought a toothbrush until I was 6 years old and my teeth were all rotten - my mum says she thought the water was flurodated so I didn't need to brush my teeth - she has dentures) or just brush everything aside. I was abused by older boys and my mother literally shrugged her shoulders - same when I was 13 and anorexic. I don't get it - I would be filled with shame and remorse if I had ever done anything like this. How can she forget / deny it?

They call me mentally abnormal and mad and allude to my past drug problems meaning that I don't remember things properly - sadly that is not the case, I have an excellent long term memory and I remember things that I would rather forget!

So I am just coming round to the idea that abusive parents talk shit deny it like this, and it isn't me being 'mean' to poor mummy...

I feel myself turning into my mother.

As a scapegoat member of a deeply disturbed, dysfunctional and abusive family, I cannot praise the NHS enough.

The system here, has picked me up, told me until I believed it that yes, it is/was them and not me.

That is very hard to take on board when it is all you know.

I, as many of you know, had inner child therapy on the NHS. I KNOW that I am not a terrible mother, actually, I am an amazing mum. My kids are testament to that, because they are amazing kids. And I am an amazing woman, truly amazing. I survived, not only survived, but I am getting better and stronger every day.

One of the stated goals of of my therapy, was to experience that "roast beef and yorkshire pudding" feeling of contentment and happiness in my life. I have had this this Christmas, watching my kids, being in my home, hearing the beautiful music, hearing the soft breathing of exhausted children in their beds.

My family will neve come anywhere near me or my babies ever again.

The thing that hurts the most is that all pervasive deep longing for a family, a normal loving safety net family, that I will never have, and that I WILL create for my babies, whatever they do and wherever they go

TheFeministParent I cut ties years ago, it was only the first step for me though. I have had some counselling, which took me so far, last year. Had a breakdown in October, I'm now hanging on for my psych appointment in mid Jan.

thisishowifeel I would love that 'yorkshire pudding feeling' but as we are vegetarian it will have to be 'Quorn roast and yorkshire pudding' feeling. Well done you

Keep posting Nemo, we can be ears until mid January.

Oblomov Oh good lord, no, I'm not at all talking about parents struggling or making mistakes - whether children have SN or not, and whether the parents are depressed or not.

As TheRealSmithfield said on that other thread, "You see this is where the crossover happens. The point at which a parent who made mistakes becomes toxic is when they continue to blame the child for their own behaviour."

That's a theme repeated on this thread. Sometimes the first mistake isn't even that big a deal - obviously i'm not talking about abuse - but huge damage is still done by parents' denials and refusal to recognise the impact of their actions, even on the occasions they acknowledge the facts.

This is why I'm not worried about Hobbgoblin's DD. Sounds like life has been hard for everyone, especially yourself Hobbgoblin (hope meds, etc continue to help), but you're desperately aware of the impact on others and want above all else to ameliorate it. So you're not saying things like, "It didn't happen; you shouldn't have been bothered by it; it was your fault." Your narrative, however you actually express it, is "Mummy was grumpy. It wasn't your fault. Mummy's sorry." You are in no way taking your DC's love and forgiveness for granted - so she will almost certainly give them freely! (And although as you say she will probably not remember, if she ever brings it up when she's much older, you'll be able to acknowledge her experience - not try to sweep it under the carpet.)

The problem with the OP on that other thread is that every time she even slightly approached acknowledging her actions, she coupled it with But-it-was-his-fault-not-mine. HE WAS TWO! And as people kept pointing out, "Sorry but" is not an apology.

I have to say, there was a lot else about her behaviour that waved big red warning flags for me: accusing other posters of cruelty to her, seeking "help" at the moment her DS was about to move out and out of her control, continually reminding him of money spent on his treatment, her threats to leave her DH because he doesn't take her side, and lots more. Some of these may be neutral in isolation: together they were... interesting.

Oblomov you said, "They are abusive parents blaming a child when the child has done nothing wrong.
But that is a slightly different situation, when you have a SN child."

Did you mean to use a word like "wrong"? Or did you mean something like exhausting and extremely challenging for the parent, like a continually screaming baby? Because there's such a gulf between despair because you fully accept your responsibilities but have no notion how to cope or strength left to do so; and sitting down coldly 24 years later and writing, "I continue to remind him of his bad behaviour from aged 2- 18. His response is that he was a child and couldn't be responsible. That is where we disagree."

That was such a scary but useful thread. Thanks for the commentary ihadonetoo.
I commented on it and then apologised when the op took umbrage, but now I think I backed down too soon. I believed the theory that if you worry about being abusive then you're not abusive. But it turned out the op on that thread was actually looking for justification.
A lot of what she said reminded me of my own toxic mother's dripfeeding "Oh, you were such a difficult child."
It's only in the past few months I've come to terms with the fact that mine was toxic, and I've read about trying to confront abusers as part of recovery.
But that thread and other experiences of the depth of toxic mum's denial about other things have convinced me it would be a waste of time. If I got any response at all it would be along the same lines: "You were such a difficult child." Also, I'm just not brave enough to try it.

quiddity Me too, re starting into that thread thinking, "Well of course you're not abusive if you're aware." But, but, but...

It was very brave of that OP to post at all, of course. She has some insight, but can't quite get over the hump of taking responsibility - or putting herself in her DS's position for a few seconds. I thought there was a lot in Hobbgoblin's analysis here that denial arises because some things (feel like they) constitute such a monumental failure as a human being that it's difficult to admit to them publicly. I suppose the shibboleth is what one does next - find a way to own the mistake at last, or plunge on blaming the victim of the mistake.

As you say, a very useful thread.

[Sorry, seem to be turning this into thread about a thread.]

twoteachers Followed your thread as a lurker. So so sorry for what you went through - but by god woman I was nearly cheering aloud as you came down the home straight in court.

I think they deny it or blame the victim.

You were a horrible child, you made me to x, y, z. If you hadn't done / been... then I wouldn't have...

Inability to take responsibility. classic bully tactic of blame your victim.

ome people should just not be allowed to be parents, imo.

I remember my mother shrieking 'look what you made me do!' after slapping me across the face It didn't seem abusive at the time, I thought it was just part of a parent-child relationship. Only after I had dd did I think 'I would never hit her, let alone across the face.'

It's tkaen so long for the pieces to fall into place, to be able to think 'this happened and it was wrong (and in some cases illegal). There are things that happened that will never leave me, some emotional, some physical (have very bad teeth due in part to neglect, had to have them all removed aged 6, which led to dental phobia, which led to where I am now - perfect porcelain teeth thanks to £4k of dental work)

I have no idea who my dad is, I trakced down the bloke I was always told was my dad only to find that,while he was a very nice bloke, he wasn't, and couldn't have been my dad. He was actually afraid of my mum, still, after all these years, and remembered her as a 'fantasist who twisted reality into a version that suited her.' That's what she says about me I bet, but it was great to hear it from someone else!He told me who he thought my dad was, but didn't know anything more about him.

I found out last year that after my mum brought me to britain from canada and my visa ran out, she never bothered to register me as a citizen, meaning that technically I was a visa overstayer with no right to remain or work in the uk. I got that sorted out, as legally I had a right to register as a citizen rather than 'ask' / apply but it cost me about £660. It should have been done when I was 4 ffs, but I suspect it would have cut into her budget for fags. We lived hand to mouth but now I get the feeling that she ploughed a fair amount of cash into savings that matured after I ran away left home at 16. She carried on claiming my child benefit until they stopped her. I couldn't have new school shoes (my old ones had a hole in the sole) because my stepdad had drunk the £.

God I sound like such a whinging cow. Maybe I am. I could go on for hours, but it boils down to, she hated me, resented me, I ruined her life in her eyes and nothing I ever did or said was good enough. I am left in pieces now and I am 33, I am sat here hating myself and she is fine and dandy

Fuck fuck fuck

Can I hate her for you? I already do on what you've said...

Nemo, you somehow need to re-teach yourself in terms of how loveable you are. You must only hate yourself because your mother was unable to love you, not because you were not loveable or likeable yourself. How you move from knowing this rationally to believing it I don't know.

I'm stuck in a similar place, and yet I didn't experience the degrees of abuse some did. It was more relentless criticism for me, and a mother who was very like me in that she struggled I think but loved me and was physically affectionate a lot of the time but still whacked me if I pushed her over the edge with childish naughtiness. She never blamed me but she made me feel dreadful and responsible for her.

I don't mean to make this about me but just wanted to add that I am now stuck in a rut of having relationships where love is hugely unrequited. I was married in my twenties to a man who adored me but I hated that marriage and was deeply uncomfortable with being loved back. I wish my relationship blueprint wasn't so wrecked.

hobglobin that sentence about your marriage really resonated with me

Me too hobbgoblinI get involved with controlling types that I love but can never please enough, or else relationships that I get into because I know I'm lovedbut I don't love them. Neither kind works.

Me too.Have often identified with you ,hobgoblin - and Nemo.

I have those relationships,quiddity.But I absolutely crave love.I feel so lonely and alone.Even though I pour love onto my dc,and would never treat them as I was treated by my excuse for parents.

That other thread was quite eerie to read - my mother could have written that almost word for word

I'm just beginning to consider that she may be toxic. She speaks to me like I'm a piece of shit sometimes, always has done. She hit me round the face and head several times as a child but somehow made it my fault for being "difficult". She says the most hideous, hurtful things to me when shes in a bad mood but she will never apologise and somehow it is always my fault.

I think any mother who questions her parenting is on the right track, any mother who worries she's turning into her own mother is a long way on the path to being a truly good mother.
TOxic mothers believe their own upbringing was perfectly fine, give or take (it never did me any harm line of thinking) and therefore do not see a problem with behaving toxicly towards their kids; it's just part of the wallpaper, a way of life.

TSC, I think that they use the scapegoat child as a way to reach catharsis. Without the scapegoat, the entire dysfunctional family would fall apart.
And indeed, the year I (the eldest, and the scapegoat) left for uni- the furthest uni away from home possible- my parents began divorce proceedings. They'd lost their whipping boy and all the filth was coming out of the woodwork and they were turning the toxicity onto each other. I also think during this time, the sibling next to me bore the brunt. I felt like I'd abandoned him to the fray, and felt so guilty for leaving them. But I'd been conditioned to feel guilt and shame for my parents' behaviour.
I haven't seen my mother for a long time, after many years we e-mailed earlier this year through Facebook. IT only took a few e-mails to realise she's exactly the same: still re-writing history, still the perfect mother who martyred herself for her kids, still diminishing my truths

but then again, I haven't read that thread, and from what I've read here the OP has accepted she was abusive but is now looking for justification?
There are no rules, I suppose. I'm scared to absolute death of becoming my mother. My dream was to have 4 kids, but I think I'll stop at two because I simply don't want to risk changing the dynamic I have now with DD (an eldest child like I was) .

Thanks ihadonetoo - I never regretted the court case. Parts were horrible, almost humiliating during cross examination. But I won and he lost and he is in prison. Most of the time I don't think about him but sometimes, like the last few days, I have to talk or post about the anger inside me.

I recognise that Nemo. My mother blames me for my dad not sticking around. Everyone is on her side and thinks I am the bad guy. She is getting on just fine with her life whereas I live with the consequences every day. I am really struggling today and wish I could just go away for a few days and not be a wife and mum.

IAMReallyfabnow - I really understand what you are saying - needing to just be yourself for a while without giving all your attention to being a mum and wife. When I have my down days I really feel like I need some time to just listen to what is going on in my head. I try and just have a bath, lock the door and chill and then stay on my own (bedroom or lounge) and try and reorder everything and 'get a grip' so to speak.
Sometimes it works...but only for a few weeks and everything creeps back. That awful feeling of everyone being on the wrong side because they don't know the truth and I want to scream it at them but so far haven't told them what happened to me. I have no answers.

I have no contact with my mother and never will. It doesn't stop me having a pang of wanting though. Today I could really use a mum .

I'm not a wife (wish I were), and my darling children are old enough and healthy enough not to need a mother all that often. And I don't know what to do with myself.
The office is closed until next week. I have a project of my own I am working on but so often I think, why bother? Who else cares? It's just a way of passing my dreary insignificant time.
My few friends have learned I probably won't answer the phone (though haven't been interested enough to find out why) so they don't bother to call and I can't call them--have nothing to say of any interest.
I feel invisible and useless.

Quiddity - just remember that you have made it away from your abuse. At least you finally got away and if your time is dreary and lonely, they are not in it any more.
But you have taken the words out of my mouth. My oh thinks that it is over with now I dont see them. All done and dusted and I have 'moved on'. My friends laugh when I talk about my horrendous parents and say 'ah you must love them really' (they dont know the truth) and think I am moody and unsociable.
We need time to ourselves to reflect - but too much time is detrimental too. You sound lonely quiddity. Hope you are ok. Keep posting x

quiddity I so know the feeklings you express :(