So do almost ALL abusive parents deny it then?

[NemoTheRedNosedFish]

Just curious!
My mother and stepdad deny everything and for years I kind of took their side against myself.

I blamed myself and thought that I had been raised they way I was because I was a 'bad' child. (I wasn't).

When confronted with anything to do with anything they did wrong, they come out with pathetic excuses for very basic neglect (I never brushed my teeth or got bought a toothbrush until I was 6 years old and my teeth were all rotten - my mum says she thought the water was flurodated so I didn't need to brush my teeth - she has dentures) or just brush everything aside. I was abused by older boys and my mother literally shrugged her shoulders - same when I was 13 and anorexic. I don't get it - I would be filled with shame and remorse if I had ever done anything like this. How can she forget / deny it?

They call me mentally abnormal and mad and allude to my past drug problems meaning that I don't remember things properly - sadly that is not the case, I have an excellent long term memory and I remember things that I would rather forget!

So I am just coming round to the idea that abusive parents talk shit deny it like this, and it isn't me being 'mean' to poor mummy...

Mine accused me of writing her 4 pages of 'lies' - the confrontation letter suggested by my psychotherapist - the one I had to write because I was still too scared of her at 43 to do the confrontation technique face to face.

She thinks that she is a better mother than Mary - despite sending me to be abused, inviting previous abusers to stay in the house, cheating people out of family property, will fraud, signing a death certificate knowing one of the causes of death being false. Telling every lie known to man or beast etc etc all while being a pillar of her parish.

So Nemo, you're not alone - sadly there seem to be quite a few of others with mothers from the same or similar moulds. And, by the sound of things you're not being mean - just far too kind, and she doesn't deserve you as a daughter.

carrotcake
often relatives (grandparents, uncles etc) collude in the abuse. All effort is made to ensure that the abused child (or adult child) is made to feel as though they are problem, because then the dysfunctional, abusive family and extended family can keep pretending they're normal, and don't have to open a can of worms. they effectively become a scapegoat.
This is demonstrated most clearly when the adult abused child tries to take a stand and break away. The dynamics of these families are such that the "family" rallies around to support the abuser and ostracize the victim. Most victims are lucky to have even one family member take their side. sometimes a particularly strong sibling will side with them, having witnessed the abuse, but often even siblings side with the abusive parent, because they don't want to risk being ostracized themselves.

Nemo I'm sorry to hear about your experiences and hope you have recovered now and receive the support you need.

What you say is so painfully familiar to me :(

My parents are also full of excuses and selective memory. I was told I was a bad child and 'any other parent would have killed me'. They told me I was lucky to 'only' get beaten up, not killed.

It was only when I had counselling at the age of 22 that I realised that they were wrong, and I wasn't a 'bad' person, simply a disturbed child as a result of the abuse.

My mother will tell stories of her own mother having to be dragged off her by the neighbours because the neighbours thought she was going to kill her as justification for hitting my sister and I with a leather belt aged around 4 and 7 I think. And talk of what a good mother both she and my grandmother were, fuck i'd hate to meet her idea of a bad one.
Now I look at my 4 year old and I just could never imagine laying a finger on her in a rage, so I do not buy the whole they were abused so they abuse crap tbh, everyone knows right from wrong.

I agree that it's crap, mamatomy, but it's a fact that abusive adults were abused as children There are also other abused children who grow up not to become abusers, of course.

I saw a thread on here a while back which included similar sad subjects.

Someone posted to suggest googling 'Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers' to find a specialist board helping with that issue.

I don't know if that is relevant in your case, op, but it might be, and on that basis is worth mentioning again.

I found it useful, anyway.

Sorry you had to endure such awful bullying.

my mum and dad were both terribly abused as children. as a child they both told me stories of it to prove how lucky i was . i honestly thought that was how all parents were in the olden days up until i became a parent myself and realised there was no way on earth i could ever do that to my child. my parents still joke that a good slap will do my dcs no harm and offer it up as a serious parenting tip when ds1 is giving me grief. i used to think there was something wrong with me that i thought smacking was wrong and couldn't do it. they made me feel as though i was a soft touch because i didn't do it. i know better now.

I do think in the olden days of 1920's to say 50's it was much more acceptable to hit children but by the time we got to even the 70's things had changed and hitting wasn't the norm at all in most households. We were hit around the head publicly almost as a reflex for any behaviour deemed naughty and in some areas locally to me you still see children openly hit around the head especially preteens yet 5 miles down the road they would dial 999 if you raised your voice to a child.
It's difficult to excuse I think parents of children from the age of 40 because parenting had changed by 1970 and they did know it wasn't acceptable and there were alternatives but they chose not to.

There's a painful but interesting thread here:
Children of toxic parents... am I a toxic parent? Long sorry

The OP there seems genuinely bewildered and hurt that the DS she admits being horrible to from the age of 2 now doesn't like her.

She's clearly aware of normal empathy when she's the one being hurt, saying things like,
"he cannot see how hurtful it is to be criticised all the time, even when I try to point this out" (Mon 06-Dec-10 09:28:33)
and accusing other posters of being cruel to her (Mon 06-Dec-10 11:11:04).

And on another thread, under her usual nickname, she asks us to to put ourselves in her place "if it were you, could you..." (not linking as not sure of namechange etiquette)

But never does she seem to reciprocate and ask herself how her DS must have felt/feel.

I admit to having recently stopped trying to understand why my ex-mother thinks like this. Realising she does think like this, and it's not accessible to logic or to the clearing up of some misunderstanding, has been a really important step to releasing myself from her web.

My mum and dad have never said sorry or that they did any thing wrong.

My mum has said that i think she was a bad mum so at leaest she knows how i feel.

to read these stories but so glad you're all ok and haven't repeated the pattern.

My dad was abusive, I got off lightly compared to my older siblings. Mum was very very soft and scared of him. They both showed a lot of love and protection though. Dad was abused and had terrible anger issues.

He died when I was 20. Mum's still alive at 80 and we get on fairly well, she's still weak natured but not as much as she was. I do clash with her not sure if that's just a personality thing or if I feel bitter that she didn't stick up for us? I remember her running out and leaving me alone with drunk angry dad My much older siblings had got out.

My feeling is that it's not my place anymore, to try to understand/make sense of it; because it's insensible, cruel and unjustifiable.

I have spent years trying to understand what was "wrong" with me. I have spent years going against the grain, challenging my Parents and (latterley) siblings; and the only person injured, ever, was me.

And then there's a lightbulb moment.

You will not understand it/make sense of it, because it was never reasonable, logical and could never be justified.

Instead of getting answers or apologies; (from them) the best revenge is a life well lived; and that's when you really stop living under the shadow.

My Daughter has only ever been hit once (she broke free and headed straight in front of a tractor). She got a massive wack on her arse after I'd rugby tackled her out the path of the tractor. I cried the rest of the day .

She doesn't fear me or DH. She speaks her mind. She back chats and cheeks me; and has no fear of speaking her mind.
I'm a disciplinarian and very stitched up regarding behaviour; so I see it somewhat as positive.

More importantly. She loves me. I get hugs, I tuck her into bed, I get impromtu cuddles. She talks to me; tells me everything.

More than I ever got, so I'm a bit of a loser.

But ultimately; I'm the winner by my reckoning.

(See I have a poition I can't hold thread above.)

aww penelope, I love that post

< has a little weep >

awww anyfucker; don't weep. Have a hug.'Tis Christmas and therefore hugs are allowed.

thanks, it was kinda a good weep though x

Agree lovely post PTD, can just see you snuggling your dd into bed

You're right Penelope, I have been bashing my head against a brick wall for years trying to understand 'why' when there is no why. When I had dd it got worse, I just thought 'how could you?' But yes there is no reason or logic.

I don't know if I can do 'a life well lived.' I have no job, no friends, no social life. I can see what I need to do to get those things, but I am incapable of doing them. I have huge anxiety and although it is well managed with medication atm I don't think I could get out there and meet new people and do new things. It's terrifying. Things that are fun to other people are my worse nightmare.

It's only since the meds kicked in that I was able to go to a new restaurant that I hadn't been in before (and not have panic attacks about food poisoning for 8 hours afterwards!)

Feel so so low and I am just clinging on for my psych appointment on Jan 18th

ohhhh nemo, I had no idea you were struggling so much with daily life

you poor thing, I don't know what else to say x

Oh I am very good at making out that I am fine! I come across as funny and clever (ooh modest too!) but that's not how I feel.

I'll be buggered if I'm going to let this go on forever and beat me though.

< grits teeth in sisterhood kinda way >

I think what happens is they know how wrong it is and actually do feel it inside, but it is such a monumental failure as a human being that one is unable to publicly vocalise or admit that. To speak up seems like additional validation of the failing. It's weird, but I think that's what happens.

I have been a witch to my children, despite the fact I love them dearly, tel lthem I love them daily, hug them and kiss them all the time. I'm on my own, it is stressful, they behave badly because of the things they have been through (DV) and so my patience is limited and ability to cope stretched. I shout and I smack them sometimes, and do all the things I think are wrong like criticising the child instead of the behaviour. I regret it all.

The DV ruined our lives, I am trying to turn these lives around but I already feel their happy childhoods are ruined so to openly admit that I am doing a rubbsih job of parenting these days (unlike the early days when I was a married mother of two) is like saying out loud it's too late, I fucked up.

Nemo, I seem to have gatecrashed your thread: can I just say how much I've admired you all across MN?

Ihadonetoo - Gatecrashing is fine; the more discussion, the better I feel!

hobbgoblin it isn't too late. It's too late to undo what has been done, but not too late for things to get better.

It is hard to always Do The Right Thing parenting wise, but the important thing is that you do your best, and you do know where you are going wrong. I know that without dh here I would have been fucking awful to dd. I did see a change in her behaviour, she was terrified of making me cross, saying 'sorry mummy' lots - because she didn't want to see me angry at her. Broke my heart - I was petrified of my own mum for years, including as an adult tbh. I have never done more than raise my voice a handful of times to dd, but she is a sensitive soul.

Now that the medication has kicked in I am much calmer and the anger has reduced massively, and dd is much more happy and relaxed. Cross fingers that she won't even remember it. I know that she is a happy child with a loving mummy and daddy and that's all I ever wanted for her, she sees herself in a happy family and atm that is all I am living for.

Nemo, I am just amazed at your being brave enough to mention the abuse, because I am so sure that if I tried, it would be denied.
Not just denied, silenced. It would be as though I had said something obscene or horribly embarrassing. There would be a horrible silence and then they would move on to the next subject.
My toxic mum does that with any subject she's decided she doesn't want to talk about, far less accusations that she might have done something wrong. If she mentions my childhood at all it's to describe me as "difficult" as though it's a euphemism for something much worse.

Ihadonetoo what an interesting thread link.
What do you think of that thread.

I only ask , becasue I have SOME sympathy with the OP. I think that thread should have been in the Sn section, and then th eOp would have got alot more support.

Not that I am saying thta all her comments were acceptable.

Or maybe it is my understanding/misunderstanding of what a toxic parent is. Some of the posts on MN of those who have been abused, make my heart weep. They are abusive parents blaming a child when the child has done nothing wrong.
But that is a slightly different situation, when you have a SN child.
Ds1 has pushed me to despair. And I kept questioning and questioning myself. Wrote Mn threads. kept going to my GP saying, what is going on here, why am I struggling so much. And then finally, after years, someone suggested he might be AS. And yes, I am not proud of some of my behaviour. And some of it I can see was not even my fault. And I think anyone would have struggled. But I have never considered myself Toxic.

Was it Nemo, who said she muttered 'f88king this etc, under her breath ? Well I do that too. But you wrote about it with such embarrassment and scorn, as if it was the worst thing ever you could do.
I have been going to a child pyschologist who deals with specifically AS. And I told him that I try not to shout at ds1, becasue I have always considered it bad parenting. I don't like to be shouted at, so why should he. But I do. From time to time.
And I told pyschologist, that sometimes, very occassionally, in desperation, I have shouted out, not at anyone, just shouted out "I am only fucking human, there is only so much I can cope with". And child pyschologist said he thought this was absolutely fine. and just an understandable release.
Maybe you don't see it that way ?