How do I help 8 year old DD develop immunity to horrible grandmother's vile comments?

[HerBeatitude]

Here's an example: yesterday, DD 8, got all dressed up for carol service at local church, my mother was taking her. She wore her new velvet sequinned skirt, couldn't find a suitable top to go with it so borrowed one of mine, was all blinged up and sequinned and feeling fab. One minute she was dancing around looking forward to the carol service, next she came running up the stairs crying, saying she didn't want to go because Nanny had said she looked ridiculous and silly.

It upset her for about half an hour and just as she'd calmed down about it, once again my mother made some fucking stupid unnecesary remark which set her off again. She ended up changing outfits because my awful mother had made her feel so bad. And she'd felt beautiful an hour before.

I didn't even feel angry about it because I'm so used to this sort of mindless cruelty from my mother. Cutting her out of my life isn't an option, making her stop is never going to happen, so what can I do to make sure that my DD develops the same immunity it took me 42 years to develop to this shit?

i wouldn't let them see her.

sorry, but she is 8. you need to protect her. she shouldn't have to develop "immunity" to their comments

you must know the harm that comments like that can cause?

I had a grandma who was good on the unfortunate remarks and tbh I would not have been happy if my mum had decided to cut off contact; in fact, I was not happy about the fact that my mum could never forgive her and is still very negative about her many years after her death. She was my gran and I did not feel anyone had the right to take that away, whatever her faults.

However, what I did want was for my dad (her son) to pull her up firmly every time she did drop one. And I had a major problem with the fact that that wasn't really happening. I do understand that that is precisely why my mum still hasn't got over it: because she wasn't supported by the one person whose job it was.

SO when one of my relatives makes an unkind remark, I am right there: "no you must not say that to coryds". I do find passive agressive works best though.

So much to think about here (along with Christmas shopping, talking to DC's about this and phone call with mother about it etc.) that it's taken me ages to get back to the thread. Firstly thanks for all your advice, it has helped get my thoughts in order. Please all those people saying "stand up to her" read my posts properly, not just the first one - I think I've indicated that I do stand up to her but if you get into a screaming row with someone who thrives on conflict (which OK, I do sometimes), they get off on it. So I try not to give her the oxygen of conflict as it just energises her.

I have a constant option of cutting her out of my life, but as I said earlier, that's a last resort and I would only do that if I felt that she was an unmitigatedly damaging influence. I've already sidelined her to the extent that we only see her every 6 weeks or so, but in view of Sunday's incident, I've decided that even that's too often. Flight, your post has convinced me of something that was flitting about in my mind but I hadn't quite nailed down properly - she may well be lining up DD as her next victim because she's lost all the others. Well it's not going to happen. I'm not ever going to invite her to my house again unless it's in the company of someone else and we're never going to see her anywhere else again unless other people are present. (She doesn't do this when there are other people around.)

MadamDeathstare thanks for your post because you reminded me of an absolute principle I have wtih the DC's - I never make them apologise because I always say that a forced apology is not worth anything and I only want real apologies or none, so I can't go undermining that with forcing my mother to apologise when she's not sorry. And whoever pointed out that an apology afterwards isn't really a solution, the only solution is for th remarks not to happen. When I'm around, they don't, or at least if they do, they're mild, precisely becuase she knows I pick her up on it each time and I usually manage to do it in a way that doesn't result in a row, which is what she wants - but Sunday happened because I wasn't in the room and so she was given free rein. I can't be following her around to make sure she's kept in check, so I jsut have to make sure the kids aren't alone with her in future until they're old enough to decide when and if they want to be. (What sort of age do people think that is btw?)

Sorry to only pick out only MadamD's and Flight's posts, loads of others have also helped and I'm grateful for the advice. I was feeling so defeated by the whole thing on Sunday when I posted that and now I don't.

Toxic parents like your mother more often than not go onto become toxic grandparents as has been proven here. These problems can and do become generational. You've already been profoundly affected by the actions of your toxic mother; she is now doing the same to your children.

Such inherently damaged people as well never accept any responsibility for their actions nor apologise.

You've already suffered at the hands of your mother and it took you years to learn to "cope" with her. Your DD does not have to learn to cope with her nor does your other child.

Cutting your mother off is something I would seriously consider doing here. She is lining up your DD as her next victim.

I would suggest you read "Toxic Parents" written by Susan Forward if you have not already done so. Normal tactics do not work with toxic family members as they do not play by the "normal" rules governing familial behaviour.

herB

re your comment:-

"Why can't I fuck her off?

Because she is the only grandparent the kids have, in effect (they do have another one but never see her). Most of the time, she spoils them and adores them and my DS at 11 has learned how to handle her. He just ignores her and tells her she's being mad when she gets on his nerves. DD seems a bit more sensitive to it, though yesterday she told her that she didn't like her clothes either, but wasn't rude enough to comment on it".

The above is no justification to actually continue with such a toxic relationship.
Like most children now adults of toxic parents there is also the fear, obligation and guilt to contend with. I think you are very fearful of your mother.

It is not these childrens fault that neither of their grandparents are interested. Your mother is buying their affection and at present you are allowing this to continue due to fear, obligation and guilt. She does not adore them at all, they are there to be used as her narcissistic supply.

She is buying their affection here and you are allowing it. Your 11 year old has already noticed and has developed his own coping strategies to deal with her. Poor soul should not have had to do that in the first place.

Attila - I am seriously considering cutting her off. But I don't think I need to atm because seriously, she doesn't do this when other people are around.

That's why I've decided to only see her when other people are around.

I am aware of the fact that she may then choose another tack - I know toxic parents always try and come up with another avenue of attack. I'll be looking out for it, just as I aws with this one. Not sure what tack she could take in front of other people though.

I honestly don't think I'm scared of her - have often told her to fuck off and she is mad, needs to see a psychiatrist, etc. etc. - but I'm interested to know what's coming across in my posts to make you think that. Maybe I'm still in denial about something and you can see it and I can't. I know you know about this stuff, so would welcome any comments from you.

Can I make a small observation which may be bollocks but you arcading for imput.

You talk about telling her to fuck off as if that negates what she does. And describe screaming rows with her as if that expreses your being able to deal with her.

But of course it isn't.

Dealing with her would consist of making her recognise that she should change her behaviour either because you refuse to tolerate it or because you will cease to deal with her at all if she doesn't.

Fighting with her is a good vent but it doesn't alter or challenge her behaviour.

I hope that doesn't sound as if I don't know what I am talking about as actually I am dealing with a less potent yet similar situation.

I am currently saying very calmly ' if you speak to me like that again either you will leave or I will. "

And then she stops or I leave. If she tries to argue, I leave.

I may be off base. I may have misunderstood your post. But getting into screaming matches is not stopping her behaviour. It is just making the situation more volatile.

Pagwatch that's a very valid point. It's the reason I try not to get into screaming rows with her. (Apart from being ineffective, it's what she understands and enjoys. ) And why on Sunday, I felt so helpless. Because it hit me then, that I have to follow her around the house to make sure she doesn't upset the kids, hence my unrealistic post of saying how do I make the kids not care. And of course I can't do that, so I'm not going to have her to stay over anymore. I have a feeling that I may just gradually inch her out.

The DC's were supposed to be staying with her for a few days after christmas, but now they're not as my brother won't be there. I told my mother that the reason they're not, is because she upset DD on Sunday. She's livid but shocked. Will let it sink in and see what long term effect it has.

Are you finding Pagwatch, that the frequency of offensive stuff from whichever relative you are dealing with, is getting less? Do you think you are "managing" this?

I'm also aware of the fact that nothign would please me more than to just cut off all contact tbh and not bother about managing it. But then I think, is that for my benefit, or the DC's? I'm just constantly second-guessing myself about this.

Hi HerB,

re this part of your comment:-
"I am seriously considering cutting her off. But I don't think I need to atm because seriously, she doesn't do this when other people are around".

You cannot fully protect your children from your mother's heartless barbs even when other people are around and you in turn cannot expect the children to roll with the punches. She will harm your children in a similar manner to how you have been harmed at her hands. I think you are still like many children of toxic parents still stuck in FOG - fear, obligation, guilt. You still have contact albeit once every six weeks and that is still too much going by her last episode. There will be more as well.

As said before toxic parents more often than not become toxic grandparents. Your mother needs to be shown that there are consequences for her actions. Cutting her off would be an action well worth considering but I know that it is one thing to write and quite another to do altogether. It can be done though. Taking small steps like installing caller ID and blocking her e-mail address from your computer is a start.

Your mother does not do it when other people are around because they would hear it being said and they would pull her up on such behaviour. Your mother is a bully and she gets pleasure from watching you all squirm. Abuse is about power and control. She is probably like this as well because her own parents treated her cruelly as a child (do you know anything about her own background?). It is still no justification for how and why she acts this way now and such people do not change. You and your children are not to blame for her inherent ills that she has never wanted to address or even acknowledge. She likely thinks she has done no wrong whatsoever.

I would now watch out for other attack angles; previously unknown health problems (often serious in nature) are a favourite source of inspiration for such damaged people. If you challenged her she would probably accuse you of being "over sensitive", would say that she did not "mean it that way", rewrite history to make it your DDs/your "fault" or some other such nonsense.

Telling her yourself to f off, see a pysch would have and has had no effect whatsoever on such a person as has already been proven because she is still doing it. It was a waste of time and effort on your part saying such a thing particularly if she is narcissistic by nature. Such people do not play by the "normal" rules governing family relations and behaviour.

I think you have become conditioned to her which is understandable as you've had a lifetime of such. It is very hard to unbreak patterns. You would not however, tolerate a friend saying this to your children, your mother is truly no different in that regard.

Apart from reading the book I have suggested and cutting her off ultimately I would suggest you post on the "we took you to Stately Homes" thread. Those women on there unfortunately (and that is an understatement) could also advise you further.

"The DC's were supposed to be staying with her for a few days after christmas, but now they're not as my brother won't be there. I told my mother that the reason they're not, is because she upset DD on Sunday. She's livid but shocked. Will let it sink in and see what long term effect it has"

Hi HerB,

re the above:-

Thank the stars your children are not staying with this woman post Christmas.

Let this now be the start of getting her out of your day to day life because she is truly not bringing anything positive into it.

She will find some way to get back at you for this apparant transgression on your part. A previously unheard of health problem, subsequently threatening to cut you off or using other family members in a divide and conquer strategy are common tactics employed by such damaged people.

She's livid and shocked eh?. Not surpoised really to read that as they are totally typical toxic parent type reactions to your quite reasoned complaint. Again you note there is no remorse or apology of any sort from her. She won't apologise. Its all about her you see and her reaction to your reasoned argument. Your mother cannot do reasoned argument and she cannot be at all reasoned with.

Oh god d'you know what I posted ont he stately homes thread a couple of years ago but after I'd been to counselling I jsut felt I didn't need it anymore because I was free of her. I'm not though, am I?

You're right, she had a terrible upbringing, no love, violent, alcoholic father etc. - all of which she denies, it's my aunt (who didn't get on with her mother) who tells it like it was. And I know she still has a deep fear of life. And there's a part of me that still feels so sorry for her because of how stuck in fear and malice and pain she is. I think that's what's kept me hanging on in there managing her behaviour rather than jsut cutting myself off from her.

I'm going to do it in increments. Am going to see another counselor about this as well.

So an absent grandparent is worse than an emotionally abusive one????

Get the woman out of your life or face facts that she is going to chip away at your dd's slef esteem and you are going to let her.

Hb

Yes it is. A d I also have less shit from other relatives who would try to coax me to deal with her.

It seems actually to baffle her that she can't get me to engage.

I wrote to her telli g her what I was going to do.
I said broadly

" I wish we had a better relationship and I would try to create that with you should you chose. But I will not engage with you when you are seeking only to vent or to try to wound me. I will not engage nor will I discuss this with anyone else.
It is up to you.
When you chose how you approach me then you will be choosing the result.'

She has a history of giving skewed version of events to others to get them to be angry with me.

A few months in and contact is reduced but civilised.

I do think though that she probably has teeth marks in her tongue

I should add I have had to be very disciplined about putting down the receiver or silently picking up my stuff and leaving.

HB, you don't need to teach your poor 8yo DD to protect herself from your toxic mother.

you need to cut contact with her.

Do as pag says warn her, communicate the consequences and follow through every single time.

There is no law in the land that says that you must expose your little girl to someone this poisonous.

Set up the framework to cut your mother out of your lives. It'll be the best christmas gift to your family there could ever be.

You keep saying she is 'mad' and 'bonkers' so what I'd like to know is does your mum have a diagnosed mental illness or is this just her personality?

I suspect it's just her personality and I don't think using the terms above will help the situation- it's almost excusing her behaviour (aswell as being very non-pc).

I think what you have to decide is who is more important here- your mother or your children? If it's your children, which I know it is really, then you need to get rid of this woman out of their lives. Words are damaging, no matter how much you try and arm your children against them, they will have a danaging effect. Stop it now.

Hello, HerBeatitude. I haven't read all of your thread for mental health reasons; please forgive me if I'm repeating other posts!

I assume she did this to you, too, hence your feeling powerless before her diminishments of DD. I bet you feel "little" when she does it?

Here it is. She is a flawed human being. She has her good points, but some fairly lousy ones as well. She likes boys more than girls, which is stupid. But some people are just stupid (intransigent) in some ways, and this is one of hers. To her, males are more valuable than females and she can't help it. I feel a bit sad for her, because she is a female - so this means she thinks less of herself! Mad, huh?

In her crazy world view, girls have to be put down if they feel really happy. It's all part of her thing about not liking females very much. If she puts you down IT DOESN'T MATTER because she's not really talking about you: it's just part of her thing about girls. So just understand what's going on, and forget about it. Bad comments can only hurt you if you think they're real, agreed?

Get cross with her if you like, but please understand it's too late to change her. She's COMPLETELY WRONG about this, so tell her if you want. Or you can be dignified and say "I'm sorry you feel that way!" while thinking "aaah, you're so wrong!" Or you can be spiteful, if you like, and tell her she looks stupid too. Like I said, it doesn't matter :)

Any help?

• just realised you said she does this to DS, too. You may have to change 'girls' to 'people' or 'children'. Sounds like DS could contribute healthily to the discussion!

Herbe, have you asked the children what they would like to do? Do they still want to see your mother?

Sorry if this has been covered already, v. long thread. But worth having a gentle conversation with them finding out how Grandma's comments make them feel and exploring whether each of them wants to stay in touch with her. And if they do, making it clear her behaviour is NOT on, and coming up with some tactics together - as suggested by other posters, challenging her every time, saying 'we are leaving now' and doing it, whatever your children would find helpful.

The great thing about being an adult is that you no longer have to tolerate stuff you couldn't control when you were a child. You don't need to be rude or angry to your mum. You just need to say, in front of your daughter, 'Mum, please don't talk to DD like that - it upsets her and it upsets me too', or words to that effect.

I spent years tolerating my FILs idiotic, jokey comments to my children. One day when he'd wound one of them up again I put my arm round his shoulder and said 'We spend all our time trying to keep them calm, please don't wind them up.' And he changed - from that moment on. It was an absolute revelation to me. I understand that it's different with your mum because you suffered at her hands and are not used to standing up for yourself. You can and must stand up for your daughter.

Good luck x

To the last few posters, the op has already said that the nasty comments are never going to stop. It's not just simply a case of not tolerating it by defending oneself.

What's the point of repeatedly having to defend oneself or one's child? Pointless IMO. The comments will still hurt whether you know they are 'real' or not. Unless you have a seriously tough hide, which I doubt of the op's daughter, then the comments will do damage.

Why not just remove the problem in the first place?

No-one would be allowed the opportunity to repeatedly verbally abuse my children.

Mobly when I posted that, I was feeling totally defeated by the re-emergence of a problem I thought I'd solved. I don't feel quite so defeated now - I think the horrible remarks will stop if we only see my mother in company. (Though as Attila points out, she'll try another attack - a mystery illness would be right up her street.)

I take your point about why bother, just get rid, but to answer Edam's question, the DC's want to have their gm in their lives and although that can't be the deciding factor in whether I cut her out altogether, I have to take it into account. (They're 11 and 8 so old enough to ahve a view)

I feel I need to speak to people in RL about this (siblings, cousins, counsellor), before I go ahead and make any decisions. Thanks all for posting and making me face up to the fact that this problem I thought I'd solved still exists, I will solve it, but probably not in a week. Happy Christmas.

HB, if this was some old bugger in the neighbourhood that was being oh so nice to your DC, giving them presents, telling them they are pretty etc etc, and they wanted to have him in their lives but you knew that he was putting his hands down their knickers, would you let them, an 11 yo and an 8yo have that responsibility of deciding who gets to abuse them?

They don't see the danger this old woman poses in their lives, that her erosion of their self confidence through her assassination of their spirits will lead to inappropriate relationships, excessive behaviour and misery for a lifetime.

YOU ARE THE PARENT. You KNOW she is doing harm, so put a bloody stop to it.

At least until they are old enough to acquire the wherewith-all to be able to repel such vile and destructive comments from her.

YOU HAVE TO BE THE ONE TO PROTECT THEM FROM THE ONE THAT YOU NEEDED TO BE PROTECTED FROM, BUT WASN'T.