Children of toxic parents..am I a toxic parent? Long-sorry

[hopelessmummy]

I hope you can help me. I don't know how to make this better.

I have a very poor relationship with my son who I love to bits but he constantly tells me how horrible I am ( in his eyes) and how much he dislikes me. I don't know if he really means this or if it's meant to wind me up and hurt me for past behaviour between us.

He is 24 and has been back at home for 2 years after 4 years at uni. He never earned enough to move out but has just got a good job so will be leaving soon.

The history is this. When he was a child he had problems including ADHD, mild dyslexia, mild dyspraxia, a chronic sleep problem akin to insomnia ( which he still has), food allergies which needed a special diet, and on top of that he was classed as gifted.

The moment his sister was born- there is just a 2 year gap- he became very demanding- and jealous. To call him a "live wire" is a gross underestimation. He used to spend all his time provoking her, hitting her and generally making her and my life hell- until they were both late teens.

I meanwhile was bringing him up almost alone as my DH worked overseas a lot, I was frustrated by only working very part time ( my choice but I found it hard) and battling with 2 chronic health problems of my own.

In short, I was snappy and bad tempered much of the time. Utterly at my wits end and almost suicidal some days. To give you an example, if I told my son he couldn't go out somewhere he would climb out a bathroom window. I also criticised my DH in front of my son for not taking a stronger line - DH is very placid, overly tolerant, not very good at expressing emotion or anger, and avoids confrontation.

This nearly split us up many times- and may still do as I bear resentment for where we are now.

Now though DH and son are best mates and my son likes nothing better than to get dad on "his side" talk to him like a mate, and criticise me to him in front of me. DH tells him not to, but not as strongly or firmly as i think he should- certainly not enough to make my son stop, as this carries on daily.

My BF sums it up by saying that I am the strongest one in the family and my son resents this, which is why he sides with his dad so they can "join forces" against me.

Last night we were having a mild argument over something ( my son and I) and he called me a stupid cow, in front of and to my DH, and DH just mutters "don't talk like that". nothing more.

At every opportunity my son tells me how much he dislikes me, has no respect for me etc- yet will still have the nerve to ask me for favours such as lifts out at night and drop offs at the station. (He has a car but won't ( sensibly) drink a drop and drive.)

I don't know if he does really hate me, but he seems in complete denial over his part in it all. Whenever I try to remind him of how he was when he was younger he simply says I have spent 24 years "being horrible to him" and that I am a "horrible person".

I don't know how to build bridges and if we ever can. My BF says he will never understand until one day he might have kids of his own.

Any ideas?

Very early in the morning when son is trapped as a passenger in a car is perhaps not the best time to be having this conversation!

Rude- it's 7.30 am not evening when he needs the lift.

He hasn't ruined my life- to the poster who said that- don't know where you got that idea.
the suicidal thoughts were 10 years ago so no point going to GP now over that.

I am going to leave this now and thanks for your help. There have been plenty of ideas here for me to work on, but equally some of youhave brought your own bad experiences and projected them onto me in a way which I feel is unfair as you invented parallels which are not really there.

eg. someone accusd her mother here of being inadequate and selfish and always putting her sister first- I expect that's the sort of thing my son would say ( not the selfish bit though)- but how can you be the judge of that? it's totally subjective and your mother may think it is something else- totally!

My mother blames me, and constantly reminds me to this day of every instance of less than perfect behaviour, from the fact that she had a difficult labour with me to the fact i wouldn't breastfeed to how bold i was as a 3 year old starting kindergarten, etc.... every little thing i ever did wrong is still chucked back at me on a regular basis.

To put a few of those things in a different light:

Her labour went on and on as she was terrified, she was giving birth in a foreign country where she spoke little of the language and was being forced to adopt positions that were unsettling to her. My dad was there and once when he was drunk he told me she wasn't pushing, she was so frightened she was fighting the labour the whole way. Forceps ended up being used, leaving both of us with scarring. She still accuses me of being a lazy baby and actually blames me for the birth

I was losing weight while she was breastfeeding and the doctors accused her of not feeding me and threatened my parents with social services and she was forced to switch to bottles. I was tongue tied and having fed my own tongue tied baby i'm acutely aware of how difficult feeding becomes, it was neither of our faults but i'm yet again accused of being a difficult baby

My first day of kindergarten i had so much fun there i didn't want to go home and ran out into the car park with no shoes on..... apparently i did this as i was the devil in child form and am repeatedly reminded of how mortified she was Or could it maybe have been that i was three and was behaving as most toddlers do?

I spent my life being accused of being lazy and difficult. As an adult I've realised I'm dyspraxic, on top of the issues that caused me my parents moved country 5 times before i was 7 years old which didn't help my social skills much as i got to the point of being afraid to make friends as we were just going to move again. I was an only child and my mother is very controlling and is notorious amongst family for her irrational temper. Family members have told me as an adult they were horrified at some of the things she did to me in front of them and the constant badgering and scolding that went on so I can confidently say that's not merely my one sided view of things. Funnily enough like you she also holds her child responsible for the loss of her career.

Yet to this day she will tell me and the world in general that I was an awful child, always misbehaving and that I caused every ounce of trouble in the family until the day i moved out.

Reading your OP made me wonder what your son's side of the story would be... you freely admit you blame him for being a difficult child fgs and that your were a snappy parent. Has he spent his life hearing how awful he is from you and being blamed for being a child? A less than perfect child fair enough but very few children are perfect... it's not his fault and as the adult in the relationship it was your responsibility to make sure you helped and supported him.... not spent his life chastising and berating him for his flaws.

Haven't read all the posts, but sounds like you are beating yourself up with guilt over how you treated him as a child, as a parent under stress, he resents the positive attention his sister gets as the seeming 'golden child' who can do no wrong, and has built up years of resentment. Your guilt makes you want to do all these things for him, but he probably realises this and feeds off it to some extent...at 24 I would say he is old enough to sit down with and say how you feel, apologise by all means, but make it quite clear that that was the past and you can only change the present and the future.
It is a two way street, and I certainly would not want to do him any more favours until he acts more like an adult and not a stubborn child. Your husband is another matter, best not figure him into this as I doubt you will change him after 24 years.
There is no point beating yourself up about the past, apologise, discuss it and move on to the present and building a better relationship with your son-does he resent it when you mention all the things you did/do for him? Perhaps he thinks you are being a martyr...when he is out in the real world and has his own children, I'm sure he will be a bit more forgiving.

Hopeless, if you can't accept that he was not at fault for the problems he had as a child, I don't think you'll ever be ready to sort it out. You sound like you had a hard time of it too with your disabilities, but I think you have a lot to sort out on your own before you even start on your relationship with your son.

You acknowledge that youmade mistakes when you were parenting him. I think that before you sit down for a chat you need to get to the point where you don't fell the need to say "I'm sorry I was unfair but you were so naughty" or "I'm sorry I was unfair but I was so ill". It just needs to be "I'm sorry I was unfair. It was not your fault."

7.30am - So what? Swimming Pool? Jogging? Tell him you've got an important appointment and go to a local hotel for a lovely breakfast on your own.

Carpe Diem!

By the way, Hopeless, to answer your question 'what would you want your (toxic)parents to do or say if it was you': I would want them to admit they were wrong and say:
'I am not excusing what I did to you, it was wrong, I thought it was the right thing to do at the time, but I wasn't thinking properly through the stress and I caused you a lot of pain- thinking about what I did to you makes me so sad as there is nothing I can do to change it now, I just hope that you can forgive me and we can move on?' or words to that effect.
Whatever you do, don't add a 'but you were difficult/I had my own XYZ problems and nearly committed suicide'- make it all about him. I know how hard that is, but seriously, it can't make the relationship any worse, can it?

I think if you have been the child who has watched a sibling be favoured and believed and indulged, you don't really mistake it for a parent having a bad day.

You didn't answer as to what your daughter thinks and I personally think it's interesting that you didn't.

i am fascinated to know what the dd thinks about it all, i must say, whether she has a relationship with her brother etc.

No one has projected on here, people have taken time to give you considered responses.
They have also shared painful memories in order to help you see things from another perspective.
If you are determined to remain so closed off then frankly you will never heal your relationship.
Perhaps that suits you better? To sacrifice that relationship rather than face the painful work of breaking down the past and looking at what really happened and how that felt for a little boy who was utterly dependent on you.

Look, he was a difficult child and he needs help moving on to proper adulthood.

Loath as I am to recommend any form of therapy and in particular anything Oliver James agrees with, you might want to look at the Hoffman process as a means of achieving better equilibrium in son's life (and ultimately your own).

Article here. There are lots of other articles if you Google, by the way.

Hoffman Institute

Believe me, I am a pretty sceptical persion but I have seen this course do a hell of a lot for people like your son.

Well, he had a bad childhood & tbh I think he needs to get help rather than constantly treating his mum like shit now.

And I wouldn´t give him a lift.

That just gives him a gree light to keep treating you badly imo.

He sounds like a spoilt brat with a personality disorder.

And your DH needs to grow a pair.

I'm rather disturbed by the times I see people described as having a personality disorder on MN by people who don't know the person and probably are not psychiatrists either.....

Whatever happens the parent is responsible for their relationship with their child. A 2 year old can't be expected to manage the jealousy he feels about a new sibling by himself. And this child had special needs too.

Agree about the personality disorder MN diagnosises, electra - a bugbear of mine.

Besides, having a personality disorder and having a difficult parent are not mutually exclusive. Quite the opposite, in fact.

Haven't read through all posts here so sorry but just wanted to jump in with something that struck a chord.

OP mentioned that when she tried to show affection son flinched.

I've had something similar with my son although he's only 15 - I could see the same situation heading my way and I've been trying to prevent for a couple of years now and feeling more and more frustrated with the circles we were going in. It got so I wanted to show affection but he would flinch and I had no idea how to get closer to him. Like you have had health issues last few years and he has behavioural issues.

I'm now able to touch him (no flinching) tell him I love him etc. and I was sat here thinking what was it I did?

Strange thing is I hadn't planned it but if I think back things changed between us when I was just off out for a walk (one dark evening) and I shouted out did he want to come as he'd been on x box all day. Just a throw away comment almost said as a joke! He said ok. I was really v. shocked and thought what are we going to talk about (we've been locked in cycle of frustrations the last few years).

Well he just chatted away I didn't really have to say too much to be honest. This happened a few more times and started learning more things to chat about/having private jokes etc/ that didn't involve the rest of the family and things just carried on improving.

Now I know it sounds very simplistic but I've really had to have a good think about when the change occurred and really I think that was the catalyst. It was spending time together - just us (possibly walking and being dark helped with not feeling awkward at first).

What I'm trying to say is there's not much point in trying to show physical affection at the moment. What I think you need to do is find a way of spending some time together just the two of you and starting over again.

My son is much happier and so am I (and I think my husband feels a bit left out now sometimes!)

You ask if you sound like a toxic parent and to be blunt yes you do. My immediate reaction to the thread title was that generally people who ask themselves this question have some insight into their mistakes. However you have been defensive and blamed your son when confronted with your pitfalls.

I fear you don't want to face up to the fact that you have let him down but in order to keep up this 'charade' he has to comply to the role of 'difficult child' otherwise the whole thing falls down about you.

'My BF says he will never understand until one day he might have kids of his own'

I wouldn't bank on it. Having kids of his own will more likely give him a deeper understanding of his difficult childhood and it may open a bigger can of worms.

for heavens sake, apologise to him properly for what sounds like a pretty grim childhood with a suicidal, angry, critical mother. I have a horrible temper that I am ashamed to say I don't always keep in check, and a child (one of three) with special needs which cause mood swings and anxieties and tricky behaviours that ARE NOT THEIR FAULT! I have at times snapped gone a bit ape and said mean things to this child as a result of tiredness, embarassment, frustration, etc, and think this is utterly wrong. I have always apologised unreservedly, saying stuff like 'I am very sorry for saying mean things to you today. It was my fault, I was sad and grumpy, but that was no reason to be so cross. I was wrong. You don't deserve to have grumpy and angry things said to you, because you are fantasic. I love you and am very lucky to have you as my child. I am so sorry and wish I hadn't done it and will try to be more patient in future'.
I have never found this made my child more disrespectful - quite the contrary - and they are a very, very loving child. OK, with an adult child this might not work, but it is surely worth a try? He is moving out. What have you got to lose?

Actually, i apologise to all my children if i behave irrationally, unfairly or angrily out of stress etc. I think it is important to model this behaviour.

You wanted practical suggestions so here goes:

do not force hugs or suddenly ask for affection- even well balanced, affectionate young men are often uncomfortable with this

on the other hand, do not put up with rude behaviour- if he wants a favour, he has to ask nicely

do not give him presents that are expensive or inconvenient enough that you are likely to find yourself grudging him later

on the other hand, do not grudge anything you already have given: tell yourself that I made the decision to make that gift/do him that favour/give him that education and I stand by my decision

and especially, do not allow yourself to grudge yourself any sacrifices made to get him treatment- that was your plain duty as a parent; be pleased that you fulfilled it

try not to argue with your dh about him in his presence: keep it for private conversations

but make sure you do have a long private conversation with your dh where you make sure that he has to step in more forcefully

make a promise to yourself that you will never again bring up against him anything that he may have done or said as a child- try CBT techniques or whatever it takes to just stop yourself straightaway

recognise that though your ability to cope with a toddler was lessened by your disability and you could not help that, you have no right now to judge him from behaving like a typical toddler- you can help that

Above all- do not let yourself think that you have only got a few months to fix your relationship and if he does not suddenly turn into the loving son you dream of it is all doomed. The truth is that the more emotional pressure you put on him, the less likely it is that it's going to happen. Otoh there is a perfectly good chance that if you can manage to part without too much trauma, you may be able to re-establish a better relationship once you have both been given some breathing space.

Imo it is not that you are demanding too much of him; it is that you are demanding the wrong things. You are demanding things that he has no control over: that he should feel a certain way, when you should be insisting on the one thing he can control: that he should behave like a civilised human being.

and fwiw I am not the child of toxic parents; I am the child of perfectly ordinary loving parents who dealt with my bad behaviour and then moved on, so I'm sure I'm not projecting here

As a child of a toxic mother I no longer have anything to do with, what I would like (and it won't change our relationship) is for her to acknowledge that she got it wrong.

She was wrong to say all that hurtful stuff to me, to blame me for who & what I was. To keep reminding me. It wasn't my fault I was conceived & born, when I wasn't wanted.

She made choices knowing they had consequences, because she was the adult. The parent. And in all fairness, I wasn't her first!

I did things because I was a child, who didn't know about action & consequence, all I wanted was her love & her approval! To maybe come first for her.

So that's what I want. For her to acknowledge that she knew better & probably could have done better. And is sorry that she made out I was the bane of her life, for the first 18yrs of mine.