Is this Toxic or not?

[ToxicOrNot]

Have name changed but am a regular poster.

This is about my MIL but not supposed to be a MIL bashing thread, I just am not sure if she is being toxic, narcissistic or just plain manipulative...

I am married to one of her sons, SIL to her other.
We are both having babies in the next few months and MIL has decided to come and visit around both births. The timing of her visit to me is unavoidable as the trip was already planned before I got pregnant (Christmastime) so I have resigned myself to the fact that she will be here from around my due date onwards; Not staying with us thankfully. All sorts of anxieties surrounding that but I have been trying to deal with it in a 'deal with it when it happens' kind of way with strict instructions to my DH that she not stay here overnight and he will persuade her out of the door if I need him to.

SIL is due in the spring and a couple of weeks ago told me that she had spoken to MIL on the phone and asked that she not arrange flights (MIL lives abroad) until after their baby is born as SIL and BIL want 2 weeks with just them and the baby and will also be expecting SIL's parents to fly in (Also living abroad) so need to co-ordinate visits. The whole point of this request was to avoid any anxiety or issues and to not feel too overcrowded by overseas visitors.

At the time MIL seemed to say she would still come around the due date so SIL repeated that she must check with them first before booking flights and BIL backed her up. This was very definitely expressed.

This weekend MIL e-mailed SIL to tell her she had booked the flights for about 10 days after the due date. SIL and BIL very upset called and asked her to please change the flights. MIL refused saying she had saved £50 by booking them when she did.

SIL says that MIL has said that she wants to be here for her son's birthday too which is a couple of weeks after their due date hence the timing of the flights, despite both BIL and SIL previously saying they will not be having a big celebration as they will have a newborn and SIL may still be recovering after the birth. MIL's response was that BIL's birthday marks her 40 years of being a mother and so she will be coming over at that time and won't be changing the flight. SIL has had fertility issues for many years and has stressed to MIL that now they are finally starting a family, they really do want those first two weeks to be just them. MIL responded by saying ?I have been waiting too you know?!

I have now spoken to SIL who says that MIL has said she won't be a nusance and that she will be staying with me and DH! I have already spoken to DH about this a while ago and told him that she can't possibly stay with us as we have only a very small 2 bedroom house (bathroom leading off the spare room which we will be making into a nursery of sorts) and will have a new baby too, infact I checked with him after she called on the weekend that she definitely wasn't staying with us and he said she would be staying with DH's granny (her mother).

So - Now both SIL and I are full of anxiety about both visits and I am unsure if DH has actually told his mum she can't stay or if he's saying one thing to me and another to her.

It seems to me that MIL is being very manipulative and making all of this about her when she should have just listened to what her son and DIL requested and been a bit more flexible. It's also making me worry that she will not respect our wishes around the birth of our baby at Christmas and I may have a battle on my hands at a time when I will be feeling quite vunerable.

What do you think? Rude and manipulative or perfectly reasonable behaviour?

Rude and manipulative.

Very rude an manipulative. Do you think its likely taht your DH is saying one thing to you and another to her, or more likely that your MIL is saying things she wishes were true in the hope/expectation that everyone else will just fall in line with her?

So long as DH and his DB are both clear about you and SIL needing to not have her staying in the house or making long visits, then I don't think you need to fret too much. But that needs DH and his DB to be strong and determined in the face of their mother, which some seem to have a problem with!

I am a bit worried that DH is saying one thing to me and another to his mum, maybe in the hope that I might change my mind for the spring visit? However we have talked about it a lot and he does know how firm I am on this point so I would be really disappointed if he was.

MIL seems to do whatever she wants regardless of what people request so it could be that she is just making plans without asking first. Even then it seems to me from the recent stuff with SIL that her plans will change to fit what she wants and she won't take any notice of what we want anyway.

I just wondered if it sounded deliberate rather than just a bit batty. She's not old and batty at all, can be very good fun, but seems to just do what she wants rather than taking other people's wishes into consideration.

I'm wondering what kind of language or tactics we (or I!) need to use to make it clear she can't over-ride our wishes. I am guessing language like 'you can't' and 'we won't allow'?

I am going to have to grow some balls to do this btw!

Is it just over the births and her visit that she is being rude and manipulative or does she have a history of this sort of behaviour?

Erm, well... because she lives abroad I don't get to see her behaviour much but she was quite bossy over our wedding and SIL and BIL chose to marry in secret which may speak volumes - It was before I knew them. During my wedding she wanted to stay at ours the night before the wedding but I wouldn't allow it, she stayed until gone 9pm sitting in the corner and sighing.

Last time she came to visit she said she would only stay with us for a couple of days but re-appeared on our doorstep after one night at her mums and stayed with us for another two nights uninvited.

I do understand that it's hard for her because she lives abroad and we wouldn't want to leave her stranded but I wouldn't be surprised if she used this to manipulate us. Her mum lives about 5 minutes drive from us in a bigger house.

How often do you see her given that she lives abroad?

Sounds to me that she's feeling quite left out with everything that's going on and with two new grandchildren due in the next few months isn't it normal for her to be excited and expect to be involved?

When she does come over is she helpful or does she expect to be waited on hand and foot? I would suggest that if she's manoeuvring to stay with you she should be told she'll be mucking in with the housework etc., - maybe that will be enough to put her off.

She's been to visit 3 times since I have known her (almost 4 years), we've been to visit 3 times too. She's about 2 hours flight away and has been for over 10 years.

The issue is really the way she is being over SIL's request surrounding the spring birth and booking flights without checking it's ok. The staying with us issue is connected; it's going to be very difficult to have a new baby and a 2 week long visit unless DH is prepared to take 2 weeks or some time off work. SIL actually suggested she stay with them for a week but only if she came 2 clear weeks or more after the birth. So if MIL did stay here we would have shared her, a week each.

Now it looks like she is planning on being with us for two whole weeks which will just be too long. Our bedroom situation is not practical for a long-term visit from anyone as the only bathroom leads off the spare room and will become a nursery. Baby will be in with us still but there will be no proper bed for MIL and I may need to use the spare room myself for night feeding/sleeping etc if DH is in work.

It would be more practical all round for her to stay at her own mother's house just up the road.

As our house is so small I don't really need anyone trying to be helpful, she will just be in the way. Last time she came she spent a lot of time in bed on the lap-top drinking vodka and orange. I am not the kind of person who needs help with housework and she does know this.

It sounds like you could just make sure there is no bed at all for her, and that she knows that? Would she choose to sleep on your living room floor in a sleeping bag, rather than up the road at her mum's?

Can you write/email her saying "I just wanted to make sure there are no misunderstandings ... you definitely won't be able to stay at our house at all as we will have converted the spare room to a nursery and I will be using it for night feeds ... but of course it will be lovely to see you for a few hours on ..."

If she does turn up and stay all day, having a new baby is an advantage. You and the baby can disappear upstairs "to feed" or "to sleep". Just make sure you have a laptop and food supplies upstairs! Arrange a "help" signal with dh, too. If you start talking about pomegranites, he's got to get her out, fast.

OP, this is really unfair on both families (yours and your SIL's). And its a little bit of a no brainer too. You both have babies on the way. MIL wants to come over. Fine. Get her to arrange in advance to only stay with her own mother in the bigger house and that she will respect your wishes about visiting.

She isn't going to stay in your house after the birth, even if you're up and 'back to normal' within 2 weeks! Its so ludicrous to expect to stay with new parents, what the hell is the matter with these people???

I can totally get where you are coming from regarding trying to foresee whats going to happen. She isn't going to change her flight, fine. But you must ring her yourself and explain that you want this precious time about the three of you and that is "the end of the debate now MIL". This just isn't acceptable, its like bullying. Its your baby and you are a grown up so defend yourself (in a nice way of course!).

I so remember this feeling when pregnant; all the pressure of trying to protect my own interests and not knowing if i'm just being over the top, its just so tough to have pushy family members .

Can't someone speak to her own mother and get her to deal with it?

I think if she has only visited 3 times in 4 years you are making a fuss about nothing and frankly I am appalled by your attitude. However that may be because I have a very close family on both sides all of whom I would make welcome at any time even if it was an hour before giving birth with no notice!

Sign of the times I think its a me, me, me society we are living in! Why wouldn't you want a grandmother to visit after the birth can't understand that reasoning. Sounds like her two daughter in laws are both selfish little madams and I for one feel really sorry for her.

As for sleeping arrangements buy a blow up bed for goodness sake stop making feeble excuses about having no room. I remember my parents putting mattresses on the floor when relatives came to stay.

Also when you end up in a home rather than having your own relatives looking after you then you may understand why. There is something seriously wrong with our current society and your attitude is a big part of that.

Put yourself in her shoes what if your not welcome to visit your own grandchild when it's born. What goes around comes around.

Also I am not trolling, I do know what I am talking about my MIL visited twice after both my births and stayed for 6 MONTHS each time as she also lives abroad. Now that length of time WAS difficult but she was my husbands mother so I sucked it up and made her welcome.

Hopefully my own children will grow up with similar values to me and marry accordinly and I will live a long and happy life surrounded by a loving extended family.

Well I partly think that if she is not staying with ILs, then she can visit when she wants iyswim.

But I think that you must tell her that she can´t stay with you either when she comes to see SIL.

Perhaps she is worried about being pushed out & is over compensating, especially as she is the mother of the sons.

Toxic selfish and plain rude. If it were me I'd write a very straight forward letter from both of you explaining that unfortunately you won't be in a position to invite her to stay in spring. Be very blunt but not rude.

If she tries to blame anyone then it needs to be pointed out that it's her fault for bookin The flight. Despite being asked not to.

Summermadness Gosh you are being very judgmental. You have no idea of the family relationships of the op so you can't judge by your standards!

But summermadness, they are not saying that she is not welcome to visit. They are not trying to exclude her, they are being flexible but she, apparently, is not.

Why on Earth can she not wait a few extra days before coming to stay with SIL?
And why is she not happy to stay with her own aging mother?

Sorry I just come from a different background obviously where a few days would be neither here or there for immediate family. My immediate family will always be welcome at any time but hey each to their own.

As I say I also feel I am well placed to offer my comments as I have had my MIL with me for 6 months at a time so more than most I do understand the pressures involved! I never said that was easy but I she was made welcome and I found a way to cope.

These selfish biddy's see them for a week or two less than once a year. FFS how awful can that be regardless of MIL personality?

This poor woman lives abroad and rarely sees her children. Look at your own sons now and try and imagine how you would feel to have to fit in around their wifezillas exacting requirements on when you are welcome or not for your one week per year also knowing you wouldn't be welcome to stay! I have a feeling that in her shoes you might feel differently

I really wonder how these two selfish women would feel if their own sons wives were so petty in years to come. Hate to say it but I have a feeling that one day they will find out.

I am already praying that I don't end up with a similar DIL. I can only say that I am very very glad that I come from a family where this would not be an issue.

Look to the past ladies when family bonds were strong and older women were respected for their wisdom. Having had 2 newborns myself and having my mum, sister and MIL to stay I can only say how grateful I was for their help. That enabled me to bond with the babies whilst they took care of the cooking etc.

Hi toxicornot,

I would not call either you or your SIL selfish biddys!.

I would also say this is both rude and manipulative on the MIL's part. I would not either be calling this MIL who lives abroad a "poor woman". She knows full well what she is doing. This lady is manipulating the situation to her own ends i.e her way only hence her rude behaviour regarding refusing to change the flight. She would never have agreed to making any such change.

Re this comment:-
"She's not old and batty at all, can be very good fun, but seems to just do what she wants rather than taking other people's wishes into consideration".

Also if she drank vodka and orange last time and sat typing away at a laptop in bed then her behaviour may be even worse this time around. That's not what I call helpful at all, you were all put upon by this inherently selfish woman back then.

This is partly also because no-one has ever challenged her before now. I would suggest you read "Toxic Inlaws" written by Susan Forward.

What has DH actually said to his mother; that needs to be properly established.
Your DH needs to stand up to his mother and sharpish; his primary loyalty is to you and any children. He needs to speak to his mother and tell her straight despite years of conditioning otherwise.

You must both put firm and clear boundaries in place before and after your child is born.

Thanks for the replies.

May I just point out that when my baby is born MIL will not be staying with us as she has chosen to rent a place nearby so there is no need for us to provide a blow up bed. We would like space with our newborn which she has been happy to give us. She will be treated in exactly the same way as my own mum and other family members none of whom will be staying here.

When she visits for my SIL's birth I will have a 3 month old and do not want anyone staying for 2 whole weeks. She has another place to stay only 5 minutes up the road and we will of course not be stopping her from visiting.

As far as my SIL's situation is concerned I am asking specifically if MIL is being rude to ignore the request they made? As I said in my OP there will be two sets of parents flying in from overseas for an intensive period of time and their request (also a request from BIL not just from SIL) was a way to make things run smoothly. SIL offered to have MIL at her house for a week but at a time which made it easier all round for everyone, MIL has ignored this and booked flights without checking it is ok. She has also assumed that we will have her to stay here.

summermadness you say "Why wouldn't you want a grandmother to visit after the birth" but no one is saying she can't visit. her son and daughter in law were just trying to put everything in place fairly and to allow themselves a little time to ajust to the changes before having overseas visitors. They were very clear and polite about their request and gave good reasons but his mum still went ahead and booked without consultation. I think your posts are very unfair and rude, particularly as you are singling out me and my SIL when I have clearly said that her son feels the same way and it was he who also made the request for space.

"Also when you end up in a home rather than having your own relatives looking after you then you may understand why" I would never expect my child (who will probably be an only child) to look after me in my old age. I would actually rather go into a home than move in with my child. I would like my child to have the freedom to choose how to live their life. Though this is an entirely different subject for a different thread.

MIL is definitely not a 'poor woman'. She loves living abroad and chose to do so. Her children do visit when they can but they don't have the kind of relationship where they have to all be in eachothers pockets. She has a really full life and lots of friends in a country where she is fully integrated into the community and speaks the language fluently. She doesn't want to move back to this country.

I have spoken to my DH and he thinks we should wait until nearer the time to discuss where she will be staying, I have said that I think we shouldn't wait as it would be worse for her to arrive thinking that she had a place to stay for 2 weeks only to be told she can't. She can easily stay with her mum up the road where there is lots of room and we would have her here for dinner, take her out and of course she may spend the odd night with us but she can't assume that we will be able to have her for the whole time.

atswimtwolengths her own mum is over 80 and although sprightly probably doesn't want to act as mediator, though I will suggest this to SIL.

Barriers are being put in her way however it is dressed up. Some people have REAL problems in life and I for one will save my sympathy for them.

Re the homes issue absolutely fine if you want to go in one, lets hope its a good one and that if you don't have the choice and get dementia or similar that your DIL lets your son visit on a regular basis to make sure your ok!

Thank you Attila, we cross posted.

I am worried that DH is saying one thing to me and another to her. He says that she hasn't asked to stay here in the spring but neither has he told her she can't. He wants to wait and see, I want it to be clear now so that she can make other plans. He says he doesn't want her here either, not more than a couple of days. So I asked him why and he said 'it would be a nightmare'. His mum is hard work and he knows this but I think has trouble with being straight with her.

Like I say, lovely fun lady but in small doses. We all want her to see her grandchildren and do understand that as she is far away this will be a special time for her, but we also have needs as new parents and can't allow her to ride roughshod over us.

summermadness

BIL and SIL have made a simple request that she come at a certain time. She has chosen to ignore this and do exactly what they asked her not to.

my hypothetial future situation has nothing to do with this issue however much you may want it to. You are really just being silly by wishing bad things on me.

Also summermadness can you explain why your vitriol is directed towards the two women in this situation (Me and SIL) and not towards BIL who has also asked his mother not to come immediately after the birth?

I have not wished bad things on you read my posts! However the saying what goes around comes around is there for a reason.

Am I being silly because I dare to disagree with you? Is that quite unusual in your world?

Sorry but if you post on a forum and ask for opinions expect to get some you don't agree with.

If she is insisting on her own way about visiting times, regardless of what you have expressed, DO NOT let her stay at your house. She can stay in a b and b or something, not your problem. She will RUIN your precious first weeks with your baby, when you will be very emotional and knackered. You will need to be surrounded by nurturing love and support as much as possible. It will be difficult, but you and DH need to work together as a family unit and a tea, and put those boundaries in place to protect you all. It won't be easy, but it will be worth it. Good Luck !

There does seem to be a lot of posts like this on here and they always make me sad. I welcomed all visitors after I had my babies and was proud to show them off to the new grandparents, aunties, uncles friends etc.

If I had inlaws who were abroad they would be welcomed.