Is this Toxic or not?

[ToxicOrNot]

Have name changed but am a regular poster.

This is about my MIL but not supposed to be a MIL bashing thread, I just am not sure if she is being toxic, narcissistic or just plain manipulative...

I am married to one of her sons, SIL to her other.
We are both having babies in the next few months and MIL has decided to come and visit around both births. The timing of her visit to me is unavoidable as the trip was already planned before I got pregnant (Christmastime) so I have resigned myself to the fact that she will be here from around my due date onwards; Not staying with us thankfully. All sorts of anxieties surrounding that but I have been trying to deal with it in a 'deal with it when it happens' kind of way with strict instructions to my DH that she not stay here overnight and he will persuade her out of the door if I need him to.

SIL is due in the spring and a couple of weeks ago told me that she had spoken to MIL on the phone and asked that she not arrange flights (MIL lives abroad) until after their baby is born as SIL and BIL want 2 weeks with just them and the baby and will also be expecting SIL's parents to fly in (Also living abroad) so need to co-ordinate visits. The whole point of this request was to avoid any anxiety or issues and to not feel too overcrowded by overseas visitors.

At the time MIL seemed to say she would still come around the due date so SIL repeated that she must check with them first before booking flights and BIL backed her up. This was very definitely expressed.

This weekend MIL e-mailed SIL to tell her she had booked the flights for about 10 days after the due date. SIL and BIL very upset called and asked her to please change the flights. MIL refused saying she had saved £50 by booking them when she did.

SIL says that MIL has said that she wants to be here for her son's birthday too which is a couple of weeks after their due date hence the timing of the flights, despite both BIL and SIL previously saying they will not be having a big celebration as they will have a newborn and SIL may still be recovering after the birth. MIL's response was that BIL's birthday marks her 40 years of being a mother and so she will be coming over at that time and won't be changing the flight. SIL has had fertility issues for many years and has stressed to MIL that now they are finally starting a family, they really do want those first two weeks to be just them. MIL responded by saying ?I have been waiting too you know?!

I have now spoken to SIL who says that MIL has said she won't be a nusance and that she will be staying with me and DH! I have already spoken to DH about this a while ago and told him that she can't possibly stay with us as we have only a very small 2 bedroom house (bathroom leading off the spare room which we will be making into a nursery of sorts) and will have a new baby too, infact I checked with him after she called on the weekend that she definitely wasn't staying with us and he said she would be staying with DH's granny (her mother).

So - Now both SIL and I are full of anxiety about both visits and I am unsure if DH has actually told his mum she can't stay or if he's saying one thing to me and another to her.

It seems to me that MIL is being very manipulative and making all of this about her when she should have just listened to what her son and DIL requested and been a bit more flexible. It's also making me worry that she will not respect our wishes around the birth of our baby at Christmas and I may have a battle on my hands at a time when I will be feeling quite vunerable.

What do you think? Rude and manipulative or perfectly reasonable behaviour?

With anyone else, if you'd asked them to visit at a particular time and they'd said 'well I saved fifty quid by booking tickets so I could come at a time of my choosing, regardless of what's going on in your life', it would be rude and manipulative and you probably wouldn't stand for it.

Same here, really.

You know, I have in-laws who are welcomed. The difference is that they know how to do the give and take that's necessary in a family, and so do we.

There's no point in feeling sad because somebody else's family isn't like yours! Just count your blessings, really.

Oh, bully for you summermadness. Just because you act like a martyr to your MIL does not mean everyone else has to.

Selfishness and sacrifice work both ways-DILS make compromises to help their MILS and vice versa. I really really dislike the expectation that younger women always have to do what the older generation want. Lots of women get caught in the middle between what's right for their nuclear families and the demands of young children and what their parents and in-laws want them to do. All too often, the men of both generations opt out of sorting anything out. And some women who were very put-upon as young DILs seem to feel it's their turn to act the domestic tyrant once they are MILS.

OP, I think your MIL has been very inconsiderate to your SIL. After all, there are two sets of parents to accommodate as well as a newborn and your SIL/BIL seem quite reasonable in be wanting to be fair to everyone, including themselves.

I agree you should broach the accommodation issue now. Mind you, if MIL ignores you and descends for two weeks, perhaps her mother would put you up?

I think BIL is just as bad for the record and when your MIL has spent a year in your home as mine did albeit on two separate occasions I may be prepared to take your non issue more seriously.

For the moment I have wasted enough time on this as my sympathies are with more deserving causes at the moment like the families of the the New Zealand miners.

mumto2 You may be one of the lucky ones with caring, supportive, loving family members but you are rare! There have to be limits to endless giving, to people who make you feel utterly horrible and powerless, especially at such an emotionally vulnerable time as having a newborn. Families are not always how we wish they could be, and layering on the guilt doesn't help!

I'm putting myself in MIL shoes for 20 years time in the future and I think once you are a mother - you may see her point of view too. Esp if you have a boy! A lot of mothers and sons have a diff relationship to mothers and daughters - I can see myself struggling to let my wee boy 'go' too. And I'm guessing she may be the same.
I can't imagine my boy taking anyone elses side except mine - even when married and I think I will struggle with it!
I think your MIL just makes plans etc with out seeing your POV - prob doesn't even see any probs she is creating.
If the bottom line of your post is that you don't want her staying with you when visiting in the spring - your dh just has to say to her now - maybe in a jokey way so she doesn't take the huff - 'you'll be staying with granny won't you - you know we won't have the room'.
I do think it's a bit unreasonable for your SIL to ask her to wait till after her baby is born to arrange flights - they would cost a fortune at short notice.

EldritchCleavage I am no ones martyr and if you knew me you would know that. I am just a decent human being, and yes bully for me for being that!

The poster will be fine there are lots of people of a similar opinion however I am very glad to be in the minority.

Also Summermadness, when you are a MIL will you ignore your DS's/DIL's explicit and reasonable boundaries if you do not agree with them?
You seem to be making big assumptions about the future based on how you choose to behave now.

But since BIL and SIL have (quite reasonably) asked her to delay visiting until 2 weeks after the baby's born, she could have booked flights for 2 weeks later than she has done - then everyone would have been happy.

ThatllDoPig thank you. Up until the recent stuff with SIL I have been quite worried about how to deal with the Christmas visit but now that I can clearly see she is being manipulative I feel much stronger about putting some boundaries in place when I have a very new baby and am going through the early days. We are more than happy to have her visit us in the same way that other family members will but with this being our first child we (DH and I) both want some space too.

mumto2andnomore absolutely, I can't wait for our baby to meet our extended families (though our families are quite small really) and will welcom visitors to the house not long after the birth or even at the hospital if I am kept in. What we don't want is overnight guests in the first couple of weeks. We're certainly not banning anyone from seeing the baby

Unprune thank you for understanding.

EldritchCleavage good idea about staying with grandmother in law

TracyK My BIL is almost 40 and has been with his wife for over 20 years. I wouldn't expect him to side with anyone in particular except for the person he believes is right or in most need. As far as I know he's not some kind of sheep who will side with his mum whatever she decides to do - he cut those kind of strings a long time ago. Both he and SIl approached the subject in a very adult and fair way as far as I can see.

MIL is very aware of the problems she has created as BIL has called her and asked her to change the flight. she is refusing despite knowing that it makes things very difficult for her son, DIL and DIL's parents.

I would maybe e mail her explaining that you want time alone and as you only have a 2 bed house then there will be no room anyway, maybe add a few phone numbers and rates of local b and b's.
i felt exactly the same when i had my baby, but that wasnt just toward my inlaws, it was the same rules for my parents too, my mum wanted to help around the house the day after and she was told to stay away too, i had a terrible birth and wanted to recover alone! so providing the same rules apply for your own family i cant see a problem.48 hours after i got home it was a free for all i didnt think i wanted everyone to visit but after i had slept i surprised myself and wanted people to visit but before they arrived they got told by dh not to stay too long!
oh im with you on wanting to go in a home, i wouldnt expect my son to look after me in my old age, my mum doesnt want us to look after her either, and as you said its her choice she moved away, i think she is lucky that you choose to spend money on visiting her rather than on a hol somewhere else!!

No - you said she had been asked to not arrange flights till after baby was born - or do you mean arrange them now - but not till 2 weeks after the birth?

I don't know that I would change my flight either - it would cost a fortune. But I guess before I pressed the 'book' button I would have called to double check it was ok. I know I do that now before booking any flight - they aren't easy to change!

OP and her SIL have wanted the MIL to stay though haven't they. They have not put a blanket ban on her staying over at all, but requested easier times for them to be able to bond (and more importantly recover) with their first babies.

I think your MIL is quite selfish to book to see your SIL on her basis rather than what was asked of her, and I would be making it clear that you don't want her staying with you whilst she visits SIL.

A good relationship works two ways and both parties should be respectful of each others wishes. It sounds like both the women (OP and SIL) actively do want MIL involved and aren't trying to stop her bonding with the babies, but are being realistic in terms of life with newborns.

Having said that you might welcome her presence when your baby is 3 months old - especially if you've got a routine, as I found loneliness tends to set in at that time (for me anyway). If you have the room spare still that is. I would still start off by saying there's no room and then if you would want her there, invite her once she arrives.

It sounds like you, SIL, DH and DB need to get together and talk with her, whilst reminding her she is wanted, but setting clear boundaries at the same time.

e3chick I respect everyone's boundaries and I can't control what anyone else does now or in the future. However what I can do is disagree on an issue where someone has asked for opinions on a form and share my thoughts however ill received they are.

I do hope the morals and family values I am instilling in my children now stand them in good stead for the future and that I will always be welcome. I also realise how lucky I am to come from such a large loving and supportive family who in turn instilled these values in me. DH comes from a very similar background and all are welcome at our house any time.

TBH I think you and SIL are being a little PFB about this. From her point of view she is obviously excited about two new GC, can't wait to see them and thinks the 'where to stay' arrangements will sort themselves out and are the last thing on her mind. And what she gets is two DIL laying down this rule and that rule. It's inconsiderate, sure, but it's not exactly a hill of beans worth getting stressed about. She has a place at her mum's to stay, so get your H's to guide her to it if she outstays her welcome. End of. Anything else will just upset one party or the other and life is just too short.

FWIW I loathed my MIL for many many reasons, but I still sucked it up when she came to visit, where she'd be standing half the day at my back door smoking and tutting, and turning her nose up at food, etc. Drove me mad, but trying to change/attack the situation just wouldn't have helped. People are inconsiderate, all the time. Point is that some battles are not worth fighting, especially one with someone who will only be around once a year. Lay down the rules with your H's and leave them to deal with it when the time comes.

Sorry - the 'it's inconsiderate' comment was describing your MIL, not you and SIL.

sounds like she has narcissistice traits to me but as I have a mother and a MIL with some I may be a little biased.

Seems like she lives in her own version of reality and just keeps repeating the same old things until eventually everyone else either agrees with or enables her behaviour.

meant narcissistic of course...

TracyK as I understand it MIL (and the other set of grandparents too) was asked not to book flights until after the baby is born or if she was planning to, not to book flights without checking with BIL first. They told her that as the baby may be up to two weeks late it wasn't ok to book 2 weeks after the due date. Ultimately she was asked to check with them before booking.

Yes bendybores the whole point of them being clear about the arrangements at the start was so that MIL could stay with them for a week after they had settled a bit.

As far as my own situation goes MIL was always coming over for Christmas but it was she who decised to rent rather than stay with us or her other son as she knew we wanted space.

I am a bit worried about the fall out this may cause at Christmas if we don't manage to resolve it all by then. Obviously with a newborn to deal with I won't be wanting to be involved in any heavy family disputes.

It is probably an excuse but why souldn´t MIL see her son on his birthday?

So she´s due to come two weeks after SIL´s due date?

I can see why the didn´t want that, but as I said before, she´s surely free to book a flight & fly in when she wants as she is not staying with them.

How much they see of her in that time is up to them.

Summermadness very obviously is a mother of boy(s) and can see this happening to her in the future when her boy(s) have females in their lives that are much more important than their mother.

If that isn't the case Summermadness would have been as rude and dismissive about the men in this scenario rather than saving her vitriol for the females - ie:

"Sounds like her two daughter in laws are both selfish little madams and I for one feel really sorry for her"

"These selfish biddy's"

"...two selfish women would feel if their own sons wives were so petty in years to come"

FWIW Toxic, I certainly dont see it that way. I see you (and your SIL) as people in a relationship, excitedly looking forward to the birth of the first child, the cement of your new family and your MIL as a woman that realises she will not be her sons No 1 any more (even though she isn't already) so trying to set a precedent now.

The first month of my DDs life was spent in SCBU. Only DH and I were allowed to see her - no-one else. We were travelling to and from the hospital every 3 hours, through the night as well. My mum finally met her new granddaughter when she was 8 weeks old and my MIL when DD was 9 weeks old - and you know what - neither of them complained. Can you imagine what it would have been like if my MIL (or my DM) had been there as well?

OP - not wishing to scare you, but you have NO IDEA what is going to happen between now and the birth - or after the birth. Being around your MIL (or your own parents) could be the last thing you need.

tbh - not worth getting your knickers in a twist about - suck it up.
I had to - everyone has to - don't ruin things by stressing about it. Wait till you have a new born -THEN you will have plenty to stress about - and for the next 18 years!! (at least)

no - shes booked to come a week and a half after the due date, just in time for BIL's birthday.

I do agree, she can come and not visit them but there's a chance that she will end up being here and not seeing the baby at all, if it's late and they stick to having 2 weeks alone which is really what they wanted. She previously said she would come for the due date and had to be told twice that this wasn't ok. I personally think she has deliberately booked when she has, using BIL's birthday as the reason, so that she can get her own way.

SIL aknowledges that if the baby is early then it won't feel like such a problem but is upset that their specific requests were ignored.

She was also told that there wouldn't be any big celebration for the birthday as it is so close to the due date and so they would celebrate later on in the month.

"don't ruin things by stressing about it."

the problem is IMO that my BIL and SIL tried to make the whole process less stressful only to have someone decide to do what they wanted anyway - thus creating stress which could be avoided.

For me personally this has encouraged me to grow a pair and I feel like I am better equipped now to be firmer about what I want when I give birth.

"but there's a chance that she will end up being here and not seeing the baby at all, if it's late"

Well that´s her look out, isn´t it.

However, I do feel that a blanket ban on visitors for 2wks is odd.

If they had told her that, that might be why she has done what she has.

I´d be really upset if my child didn´t want me to see their baby for 2wks tbh.