Do we expect too much of ourselves (and each other) in terms of monogamy?

[Frrrrightattendant]

Is it even 'natural'?

I've been wondering this for ages - and not particularly in the context of any of my relationships, but it does come up and I'm interested to know if it's a minority view or there's something in it.

I was wondering whether we are, in terms of nature, really built to stay with the same person for ever. Or even for several years...or as long as our children are small(ish)?

What's the human condition got over other animals that makes us aspire to a lifelong mate? Do animals have other partners...I am ignorant on the science aspect.

It's just that I have seen so many people divorce and split up and thinking about it there does seem to be a big dissonance between social expectation (ie find ONE person, marry them, have kids, stay together) and what often happens.

I suppose I'm wondering if it might be a good thing to lower our expectations a bit - instead of getting hopeful and then being horrendously disappointed when one partner fancies someone else, or goes and has an affair or whatever.

I'm trying to word this sensitively so I hope it doesn't upset anyone. But I'm just not sure we are all cut out for long marriages.

What do people think?

Well Frright, you seem to know some of your boundaries, although I'd hope you wouldn't have got involved with the attached man even if you hadn't known his partner. You seem to be saying that monogamy isn't for everyone, but you hate deceit and lies. You also seem to make a distinction between men and women and how men in particular might behave, if society wasn't conditioning them in a certain way.

I take a different view on this, in that I don't think men and women are intrinsically different in their responses to monogamy. If a person doesn't want to be monogamous, or thinks s/he cannot be monogamous, then it's best to be honest about it. And people can and do change their minds, but great hurt is caused when they don't tell their partner about this change. I also think it's laudable not to want to be part of a deceit, which is why I'd never have a relationship with an attached person (and never have). In fact, if they told me they had an "open relationship", I'd be making polite enquiries of their partner...

I think what I mean is that the relationship I have now is comfortable for me.

Much more so than having a live-in partner or husband, I think, would be. I am happy with whatever my percentage is - he doesn't define me in every way. I live alone and I want to live alone and sometimes he is here, which is lovely.

With a friend, I wouldn't put a restriction on how much of their time I got. I would just be glad when they came round to see me - however often that was.

I like the feeling of being wanted in some way - even if it's only once a year - that person is important and we hit it off, somehow, and I call them a friend.

I just don't understand why a relationship would be different - apart from obviously you would be involving sex, if both of you wanted to.

Sorry, I crossed posts with you. I think you misunderstand a bit, I do equate men and women in the monogamy or lack thereof question. I'm only talking in reference to blokes because of my own sexual experience, being a hetero female (mainly!)

Sorry if it wasn't clear.

I agree about not being part of a deceit, it's not nice and normally I would turn away from it. There are certain circumstances though in which I probably wouldn't.

Really Frright? You would still deceive someone?

I wouldn't deceive directly, no. I've only done that once.

But I'm still uncertain of the third party's role in a deceptive situation between two others.

That's me being frank and a bit stupid.

Frrrrightattendant, I mean this in the nicest possible way, but you seem so....mixed up with regard to relationships.

I don't want to quote you from another thread, that doesn't seem fair, but do you realise that you totally contradict your position on that other thread?

Sorry, I have been vague deliberately, but I hope you know the one I mean.

Well thanks for your frankness Frright, but as you probably know, I think colluding in deceiving another person is wrong and is not something I could do.

I'm not sure which one, but yes, I probably am. I have written about how wrong it is to be involved in that sort of thing many times.

I really didn't want this thread to focus on me, just the general thing about monogamy.

Maybe that's asking too much. my own behaviours are not what I would call representative of a sound value system so I don't think they are really that relevant!

Ok, well I won't persue it, but if I message you with the thread link, perhaps you could read it back to yourself and see how it fits in to your thoughts here. Of course, you can ignore it, though

The trouble is that too many people still believe in the superiority of monogamy, ie that it's the way of doing things everyone should at least aspire to. It's just one of the ways of organising your life, just another fetish, really. But those of us who are upfront about our refusal to engage in monogamy get a semi-constant barrage of crap from monogamists (including those who have cheated on their own partners) about how there must be something wrong with us, have we considered therapy, and it gets even worse when we quarrel with our partners or fuckbuddies. Monogamists love pointing the finger at the non-monogamous when one of their relationships goes wrong - yet they never seem able to get their heads round the concept that plenty of monogamous relationships go wrong (not always due to breaches of monogamy but due to things like violence, addictions, one partner wanting children and the other hating the idea of parenthood, etc etc).

Thanks so much, Lougle - I have messaged you in return

You're right - I was totally opposed to all this, a few short months ago!

I know quite a few polyamorous couples who seem to make it work. He#1 and she#1 have been married for ten years; she#1's been in a relationship with him#2 for three years; he#1 had a nice thing with her#2 for a few months but that fizzled. He#2 has a few other partners, and they all seem happy in their situation.

I had a go at being in an open relationship with a (now ex-)partner, but simply couldn't do anything with anyone else while I was emotionally attached to my partner.

HR I do get you, I think. I always found it really almost impossible to be with other people when I was in love with my first partner.

They could be great fun and really nice etc but in the end, nothing quite went through to my heart, and I would always choose him.

I'm not sure how that level of adulation or attachment fits in with my theory though.

Solid - thank god for your views. You cut through the hypocricy that surrounds long term relationships. In other words, the discrepacy between what people say and what people do. If everyone behaved according to the monogamy model, there would be no divorce, no affairs, no naughty thoughts even! Everyone would remain married for ever in a blissful state - and pigs might fly as well!

I totally believe in monogamy. I think if you lower your expectations they will be met.

Re. marriage, I think you have to choose your partner well. Everyone I know whose marriage is dodgy, or who have split up, have known there was a big flaw from the outset but have either hoped it would go away or thought it wouldn't be a big problem.

wannabe: aka "women marry men hoping to change them, men marry women hoping they will never change"??

But UQD do people go into marriage/monogamous relationships thinking they won't change? It's everywhere, this notion that people change, all the bloody time!

The point about long-term relationships is that you are meant to be committed to dealing with the inevitable changes both partners will experience.

Absolutely. That was a semi-jokey comment. And bearing in mind my above story about my friend...

How much if a change do people think they can accommodate? What's a deal-breaker? I know a couple who stayed together when one was having gender reassignment therapy...

I don't think anyone can predict that.
And it's hard to know what is grinding unhappiness and incompatibility; what was a bad decision in the first place; what is just one person being a twat.

Exactly. The fine line between accommodating another person's needs and that person being an overly selfish twat...

I have known a few gay couples who have made relationships work where there is a couple, but each has other more or less important other relationships at the same time. I expect there are heteros that have managed this, but seems that there are fewer expectations weighing on the gays and perhaps that makes it easier (one couple I'm thinking of have been together 30 years, and it's still working).

I see for tax purposes it's easier to deal legislatively with monogamy for instance, but a shame to make some people's lives a misery for tax purposes!

Yes, children can make all the difference. Not being a particular fan of marriage, I would defend to the death the right of a gay couple to marriage, but be very bemused as to why they would want it. The very long-term gay, non monogamous, partners have often made me wonder how many heterosexual relationships would have been saved if they had been "allowed" that kind of freedom (by their OH and by society as a whole).