Do we expect too much of ourselves (and each other) in terms of monogamy?

[Frrrrightattendant]

Is it even 'natural'?

I've been wondering this for ages - and not particularly in the context of any of my relationships, but it does come up and I'm interested to know if it's a minority view or there's something in it.

I was wondering whether we are, in terms of nature, really built to stay with the same person for ever. Or even for several years...or as long as our children are small(ish)?

What's the human condition got over other animals that makes us aspire to a lifelong mate? Do animals have other partners...I am ignorant on the science aspect.

It's just that I have seen so many people divorce and split up and thinking about it there does seem to be a big dissonance between social expectation (ie find ONE person, marry them, have kids, stay together) and what often happens.

I suppose I'm wondering if it might be a good thing to lower our expectations a bit - instead of getting hopeful and then being horrendously disappointed when one partner fancies someone else, or goes and has an affair or whatever.

I'm trying to word this sensitively so I hope it doesn't upset anyone. But I'm just not sure we are all cut out for long marriages.

What do people think?

I don't put any effort at all into being monogamous, it's simply who I am, neither does my DH, if we weren't naturally monogamous we wouldn't still be together after 28 years - it shouldn't require work to remain so, if it does then you are on the wrong track.
I also don't think that people change that much either, not at a basic personality level - there are those who are good at self delusion and talking the talk of course though.

Oh, I don't put any effort into monogamy, in the sense that I do not - strangely enough - find myself having to beat off potential suitors with a pointy stick.

Malificence, no not the monogamy itself, but the relationship takes work, doesn't it?

Lougle - your views are quite fundamentalist. For instance, in the good old days when divorce was difficult or frowned upon, do you really imagine that everyone stuck with the marriage vows? Then, as now, there were get-out clauses. Thank god for that. The misery of people being stuck in supposedly life-long monogamous relationships when they don't want to be - what a horrible thought. A bit like slavery. People change - what you think you want at 20 maybe completely different to what you want at 50. In the past women, especially, were often condemned to miserable marriages because they had absolutely no choice - socially, financially and in other ways they were tied. The ridiculous effort to "keep up appearances" and all that cr**.

While I agree that people probably give up on marriage too easily (the grass is always greener syndrome) I would never want to turn the clock back. I am thankful that I live in an age where I can chose whether or not to stay in a marriage.

Is it more that a significant minority of people get married when they don't really know their spouse? I'm astounded at the number of people who don't ask any serious life-planning-type questions of their potential spouse and then wonder why it all goes tits up within 10 years.

Yep, I am a 'traditional' fan, I agree.

Do you know how many of my extended family of my generation who have children are in long-term monogamous relationships? One. Me. My sister, ditched at 33 weeks, then taken back again, pregnant again, ditched when 2nd baby 4 months old. My cousin, baby by one guy, split, baby with other guy, on-off relationship. My other cousin, baby only a few weeks old, split already. I could go on. All that heartache, all that instability because people get into relationships then they fall apart as soon as it gets hard.

FLATE - spot on.

Incidently, do you know how many on my extended family of my Mum & Dad's generation who had children are not in long-term monogamous relationships? One. My uncle, who came back from a visit to a friend to find his and his son's belongings packed for him (she wanted the two girls ) and my

I personally think people live alot longer these days, expect way more out of life, and financially don't always have to tough it out like our grandparents do, hence the divorce rate, making it work only brings misery for some people IMO, i met my H when i was 20 i am now 40 and am such a completely different person to what i was back then, so is he, we are havin massive problems, and i honestly dont know if toughing it out and making it work for the next 40 years is an option, like anything in life what works for some doesnt work for others!!

Lougle - I can't speak for him. But it's my understanding that he didn't realise. Maybe he did, but didn't think it would be as much of an issue. Whatever the case, something changed.

I think people make a huge fuss tbh. To me, it is not a hard thing to be monogamous.
I made a promise to DH which I meant 100% at the time, and continue to mean it. I don't have to wrestle with myself to stick to that promise.

Similarly, I don't really understand why people say relationships are about hard work. Yes you have to invest in your relationship, but that should come naturally and not be a vast effort surely?

Lenin, I wondered about that. I mean the man can get away with a lot less during gestation...what is the reason that there is a myth/belief among some that men need to spread their genes more than we do?

Something like that.

Lougle, to answer your question, no, I dislike deceit and infidelity disturbs me once fidelity is promised.

I didn't mean that. I meant that perhaps society shouldn't place such great store on promising fidelity for the rest of one's life.

WWIFN - it's difficult to answer that question as my dp is not someone who would ever say that! And if he did, I know him too well to believe him.

I have felt committed to him for the past ten years, yes - though we were not together for all of that time. In theory he is someone I would commit to, but given that he could never be committed to me I don't think it would be a great idea.

I mean, it would be pointless.

I don't think he would even want me to do that.

We work best on a non committed basis - in practical terms at least. And I suspect I find him more committable to than some because I know he wouldn't accept it iyswim. I am as scared of it as he is.

Personally, I have never been able to worry about whether other people are monogamous or not.

But from what I have seen of other people's sex lives, lying invariably causes hurt, noone feels good about having been lied to. So if those people who know they are not monogamous were prepared to either be open about it, I believe the world might be a better place.

I agree with that post 100% Cory.

Frright the reason I asked the question is because you have always struck me as a romantic and I wondered whether you have convinced yourself that monogamy isn't for you, simply because you know it will never be on offer with your DP?

I sometimes think that people give in too easily. Dh and I have been through a lot together and are still here. In my teenage relationships I cheated on every boyfriend but it wasn't about anything other than wanting the guy I cheated on them with. He is still the only person who could make me think if my marriage will last forever but I need to stop being a twat and stick to what I promised in Church.

"For a lot of mammals isn't most offspring-rearing done in all female groups and the men come and go, so to speak"

this is still the arrangement in some tribal groups.
Men and women living separately, women staying with children, men going off on jaunts.

man-woman couples as the family unit only comes in when people start beng farmers and land owners rather than hunter-gatherers.

some people from previous generations may have stayed together, but i actually think that wasn't necessarily a good thing.

my grandparents bickered and were pften rather mean to each other - my Dad and uncle thought it would have been better if they had split up.

my dads grandmother conceived a child that was very obviously not her husbands (he was in France during the crucial period) - and claimed her 13lb baby had arrived early to cover this.

1 in 3 kids in 1900 were not the child of the father named on their birth certificate (compared with 1 in 10 now!) - monogamy never was that strictly adhered to.

WWIFN, it's nice of you to have noticed me at all! I've been told I'm a 'romantic' but am not sure what that means, entirely...I do think I used to believe in something that, well, I've learned not to.

I don't think it's because of DP. I started thinking about it a couple of years ago when I was asked out by an attached man. The politics of it came into play in my thinking, and although I refused him an affair (I didn't feel comfortable with it, because I had met his OH and really was fond of her - it actually made me lose respect for him) I thought about how he lived his life continually being a philanderer (or whatever the term is) and getting away with it because he was so bloody lovely.

He must have several women on the go at a time. He has bags of confidence thus seems to believe in the righteousness of what he does - though to me it doesn't seem right. But in a way - it kind of seems natural - apart from the deception that has to go on, sadly

that's the bit I really object to.
I guess if men especially weren't expected by society to be faithful, they might take it further and consider lying to be OK as well - or it might go the other way and they could become more honset as fancying or wanting more than one woman would be viewed as part of life.

I do feel though that 'sharing' my partner - whoever it is - is kind of something I'd be Ok with. Clearly I'd want to know where they were and so on but I understand what it is to have feelings for other people, close friendships, etc - I dunno, but sometimes to resist is very painful. There is a huge spectrum of closeness between people.

that's something I forgot to mention EAP - (and OUCH at 13lb baby btw)

My parents have stayed together but always had a really awkward relationshp and I recently realised how much I almost despise it

I don't want to end up in one of those. I spent years thinking it must be the way to be, but actually it depresses me to witness it

some bits are great but oh my, not for me. Maybe this is the epiphany. I need to go suck some marrows

I think I'm just damaged?

I think people need to be honest about their curent situation - it isn't fair on someone to cling to them even when you are making each other (and perhaps, those who live with you) miserable. Making a promise and trying to keep to it is a good thing - but failing to recognise it when it is falling apart does no-one any favours.

"I do feel though that 'sharing' my partner - whoever it is - is kind of something I'd be Ok with. Clearly I'd want to know where they were and so on but I understand what it is to have feelings for other people, close friendships, etc - I dunno, but sometimes to resist is very painful. There is a huge spectrum of closeness between people."

Ok (sorry was out for the afternoon), lets go with that last statement for a minute or two.

You wouldn't mind 'sharing' your partner. What would constitute 'sharing'? Are we talking 50/50, or 33/33/33 or presumably 25/25/25/25? How would you feel if it was 75/25 with you being the 25? Or 60/20/20 or even 80/10/10. Would you still be ok 'sharing'?

What if time-wise, it was 50/50, but you realised that emotionally it was 75/25. Would that still work for you?

Because to me, having only read about affairs, thanks to MN, never experiencing them, it is not so much the physical that hurts, as the emotional. People who thought they were the centre of someone's world, realising that they were, somehow, not so much the centre but 'half'.

Then, more infrequently, we get a woman who is brave enough to admit to being an OW. She, despite knowing that she is the OW (and implicit with that is the knowledge that there is an 'other') having started off feeling OK with the arrangement, soon feels the imbalance of realising that although he may sleep with her, and spend time with her and sneak out to talk to her, there is another woman who he will not sacrifice.

You see, I think the idea of 'sharing' starts out reasonable, but emotions are emotions. How many best-friend sagas do we hear about, when there were 2 best friends, another friend is introduced, and then the first friend finds they have more in common with the third friend, and friend B feels pushed out?

well, although your childhood and your parets relationship may be big in your psyche, you still call the shots. you don't have to accept an uncomfortable relationship - we don't have to repeat history.

on the other hand...every relationship has difficult patches, and sometimes..if you know you are made a certain way, are you better accepting that, or making youself lonely looking for a better way?

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