Is DH an emotional abuser?

[TheRedSalamander]

I need to get some perspective here. Have been mulling things over for a while and I would really welcome MN opinion on this.

I have read some of the links that IseeGraceAhead has posted on the NPD/Abusive partner recovery thread and DH's behaviour does tick a number of the boxes. What I need to understand is how serious it is. For example if he is just a 1/10 on the scale then maybe yes he's a bit unkind but not something I should be putting in the same sentence as emotional abuse. Part of the reason I'm asking is that I really want to talk to him about how I'm feeling (although I am finding this very difficult as he doesn't want to hear what I have to say about "us") and being able to put this all into some kind of context would help my muddled brain.

He will say I'm being weird and odd for raising such an issue, and although I know that this is one of the things that should start alarm bells ringing, there is the possibility that I am just being a bit odd and am over-reacting. Having a few folks to help me get some perspective would really help. Can someone ask a few questions of me that I can answer that might help me work it all out please?

How many people really have that relationship though? I just assumed that the picture you paint is the ideal, but folks get varying degrees of it because, well, nobody gets things perfect right?

(Now there will be a hoard of pasters saying "I do" "yes my dh and I are as per writer's description" "we are like that sorry" and I will feel ridiculous for saying that!)

I feel sad reading your post at 17:23, Red - it's what I've always believed, too. People around me seemed to support the idea that only the fairytale few get that warm, loved-up, secure relationship for life. I now know I was wrong. The people around me reflected my cynical world-view because I was surrounded by dysfunction. Like attracts like. I am not exaggerating in saying I lost 55 years of my life (to date) to this misanthropic lie.

Whilst you're learning the facts of unhealthy relationships and dysfunctional people, how about opening yourself to more information & examples of happy, low-stress relationships? That is, successful relationships amongst functional humans?

No relationship is perfect and everyone has problems etc, etc.

But surely in a good relationship, you both want to work at the problems together? And one of you doesn't belittle the other and/or says negative things about the way the other one looks?

Seriously, if he won't talk about this or even acknowledge your concerns, please leave him sooner rather than later. What are you getting out of this relationship? How will you feel ten years down the line if you are still with him and he is still acting like he hates you??

WHY do men do this btw? Any ideas? My ex was just the same. Never said he loved me, acted as if he hated me... so why was I the one to end it? this does seem to be a male thing, or at least I have never heard of a man complaining about a women behaving in such an utterly bizarre way.

I think newname has it spot on. Whatever you call this, it's upsetting you and stopping you from having a fulfilling, emotionally rewarding relationship.

My tipping point was when the thought of carrying on any longer was far more depressing than the thought of being on my own with two little ones. And the reality was far easier than I'd imagined. And no, not all relationships are like that- please give yourself a chance to find that out.

Men complain of it less vocally, but plenty of women do this to their husbands. I've been to a thousand dinner parties and such, where the wives constantly make little digs at and about their husbands. They expect you to laugh in a tinkly, insincere way.

Red - there are good relationships to be had. They won't be roses and lingering loved-up glances all the time. But a non-abusive relationship is, in my experience, much much easier to do.

I lived with an abuser for many years. He had me tied up in knots not knowing which way was up. I am 4 years down the line from leaving him and am seeing just how skewed my view had become as a result of his mindset.

I have a new DP who is not an abuser. He is just a decent bloke, considerate, thoughtful, supportive. It's a revelation. He also has less saintly moments, of course, don't we all?

Don't settle for less than you are worth. And you are worth far more than staying with someone who is being unkind.

My DH (who was in a highly abusive relationship with his ex for about 18 months) said that he had convinced himself that loving relationships were a Hollywood myth.

And of course relationships go through bad patches, health problems, depression, money worries etc. And we all behave less than our best, perhaps, when we are having a row. And we should all look at our own behaviours and reactions and baggage when those situations occur.

But I think generally in non-abusive relationships, the default setting is that the other person thinks you are the bees knees. In day to day life things are pretty good, and the other person wants you to be happy and will do their best to make sure that is the case.

I've got a question for you - are you having any fun?

Tanga at the moment no I am not having any fun. I feel like my weeks whizz by in a blur of minor "rows" or niggles at each other, we lurch from one small catastrophe to the next and I want to cry about once a day. I am desperate to talk to him but I can't.

On the face of it though you wouldn't know I feel this way. He is going away this weekend with some friends and I'm pleased to have a bit of space to be honest.

Tanga at the moment no I am not having any fun. I feel like my weeks whizz by in a blur of minor "rows" or niggles at each other, we lurch from one small catastrophe to the next and I want to cry about once a day. I am desperate to talk to him but I can't.

On the face of it though you wouldn't know I feel this way. He is going away this weekend with some friends and I'm pleased to have a bit of space to be honest.

Oops! Twice. Sorry, damn iPhone.

Red, am back briefly. Just to say that my dh and I were in a position where we really disliked each other, irritated each other and were together 'for the sake of the kids'. We were so unkind to each other. There were very good reasons why we had got to this place. Maybe it was different from you because it was both of us behaving this way. While we were pootling along it was so awful.

You know what, it didn't even take a lot to turn it around? He finally got some help for us, which was a big thing in melting my heart. He was also supportive of me at a time when I was really depressed - I mean really, really badly. I actally feel like I could fall in love with him all over again (I haven't yet, but I do want to!!). And that is amazing.

I just wanted to share too - that it's sometimes possible. Depending on your dh. No-one knows him except you - he may be like others ex h's on here, or he maybe like mine.

Red, one of the signs of an abusive relationship is when the abuser blames the other party for the abuse.

It goes like this: you asked him to be kind to you as you had a tummy bug, he stated that he was not going to have his nice day ruined by YOU trying to start a row. (which of course you were not)

No doubt, you were left feeling confused and caught off-guard - you wondered if indeed you had been unreasonable in your request.

You knew that something went wrong in that exchange and you couldn't put your finger on it.

You felt that he misunderstood your motives for saying "please be kind to me I feel rough".

You felt that perhaps if you'd said what you'd said in a different way he wouldn't have misunderstood.

In short, you wondered if in fact it was all your fault. It does your head in doesn't it?

Buy this http://www.amazon.co.uk/Verbally-Abusive-Relationship-Recognize-Respond/dp/1558505822/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1286490799&sr=1-3-spell book It is great.

oh bugger the link didn't work.

here

Red I am sitting here in tears trying to answer your question. How does it feel to be called the abuser? I can't think straight and that is part of the problem.

I left XH a month ago because I was so unhappy. he didnt want me to go. The last straw was the sex thing. He thought even though I didn't want it he was entitled to it. I was abusive by withholding physical affection. He ignored my feelings because he loved me SO much he wanted to show me. He called my bluff and said if I was married to him I should share his bed. So I said I would leave.

I have belittled him, criticised his attempts to help at home and humiliated him. I lack respect for him and had an affair three years ago. I have behaved differently to other people who think I am charming and kind. I am probably a narcissist and he is probably codependent.

His parents had a violent relationship and split before I met him. He grew up as the peacemaker and hates arguments. His brother was so damaged he has been depressed most of his life.

My parents have been together 52 years and are loving and kind and supportive and in our family we all get along and don't have many squabbles.

I honestly don't know what the truth is. I can see my behaviour has been vile and I am ashamed of myself. I am not fit company for anybody and prefer living by myself so I cant harm anybody. My DC are with XH in our home and I miss them.

My friends and family are lovely and kind and completely baffled by our split as we seemed such a happy family. I cant explain to them except that I was unhappy and couldnt bear it any more.

All I can do is wait and see what happens now we are not winding each other up. True character will out and in the long run all will become clearer.

I am sitting in my little home feeling like I am hiding from the eye of Sauron. I pray he will find someone else to look after him and for him to love so I can move on.

And breathe.

Whenallelsefails, to say you're having a tough time of it is somewhat of an understatement isn't it? You have been so brave. To be missing your dc so much must be awful. Do you see them often?

Did you plan somewhere to live etc before you left?

Thanks Red. I am not brave all the time!

My DC are older teens and very independent. DS came and slept over last night which was lovely.

When I left I went down to the estate agent on the village and asked if he has somewhere suitable. He showed me a lovely little house and I moved in two days later with a mattress a sofa and a chair and all my clothes. Now I have some beds and a table as well. It has a lovely vibe, very calm and peaceful and welcoming. It is only five minutes from the DC so they can pop in.

So far no-one seems to be too damaged by me moving out. It has been a relief I think. But how would I tell?

Have you made any plans at all Red?

whenallelse, please don't be so hard on yourself. You sound way too self-aware to be a proper narcissist. Is this what someone has told you that you are??

Aside from any other issues, your X certainly didn't have any right to insist you sleep with him or share his bed! You not wanting to wasn't you abusing him, it was probably more symptomatic of everything else going on.

But you were brave when it mattered!

I don't know if we are going to split up yet. Part of me wants us to try and make things right but another part thinks that I have been disappointed and let down so often that he's eroded my love to the point that I would rather start anew. Think he'd really have to do some proving of his love- but past experience suggests that this is unlikely. He's admitted that he married me hoping he could change me. If he could show me even a little bit of tenderness, tolerance and acceptance then there might be a chance but I can almost hear the conversation "here we go again. what the fuck are you on about? You've always got something to whine about, I've always done something wrong haven't I?" maybe I shouldn't pre-empt how things will go but he doesn't often prove me wrong sadly.

Your little home sounds lovely. It gives me bit of hope! Bugger whether other folks thing x or y about your situation, hope you'll feel free soon.

TFMFS

XH bought a book about Emotional Abuse and picked out the behaviour he saw in me to prove I was abusive. It was hard to argue otherwise, although I have realised that in my extended family there is a habitual tendency for grumpy old aunts to belittle and insult the lazy uncles. (My parents are excepted) I totally don't want to be that person and have worked hard to change and treat him with respect.

I think it was caused by years of resentment running the house and family very capably while he built his career. I got angry and never expressed it and it festered.

You are probably right neither of us have personality disorders but when really unhappy I think our behaviour gets distorted into very unhealthy patterns. As we have both held down demanding professional careers and have successful hobbies and social lives I think we are both basically okay. That is why I think time apart will help us both.

RED SAL
"He married me hoping he could change me"
That is shocking. I imagined a shop where you could take your wife back if she was faulty within the guarantee period and get a different one! How did he want you to change?
How did you feel when he said that?
My XH used to say he wanted me to be more sophisticated. He really wanted to marry a ballet dancer

whenallelse, a narcissist could not have written your posts (they've often tried, but most on this forum could spot the difference). There's a fairly complex process to go through - and you've started it. That's something to be proud of. Please hold on to the knowledge that you now have space to (re)discover your true self, and you've acted with wisdom. Therapy helps and so does Mumsnet! Keep reading, and post when you feel like it ... xx

My 'recovery' house sounds a lot like yours! I'd never have selected it for my home, but it's the right place :)

Red: I share whenallelse's distress at "He married me hoping he could change me". He didn't choose you for yourself, then; he chose you only as raw material?

Thanks IGA your opinion is much valued. I was rather overdoing it this morning as it has been a very tough week but I know I am just a normal unhappy person really!

I agree both about Mumsnet and counselling. I have been going to a psychotherapist for 13 months now and it is helping me understand things better (and so are you lot!)

But personal growth is hard and painful at times especially facing the less attractive aspects of our behaviour. I am hurting a lot at the moment.

Red Sal, I read "Too good to leave too bad to stay by Mira Kirshenbaum" and I found that really helpful in making the decision to leave. The crunch for me was the question "Can you imagine ever having fun with your DH?" It is quite a fun read but you will have to keep it at the bottom of your knicker drawer. My DH was very upset when he found my copy.

My relationships isn't perfect ...but my OH would never purposefully try to make me feel bad about myself.

Thanks for talking to me everyone. I sat down with DH last night and told him some of how I was feeling, so we?ll see how things go from here. I don?t think it really sunk in to him how much this is hurting me but I explained how it used to feel like we were a little team against the world, and now I feel it?s just me against the world and this makes me feel utterly adrift and alone. He didn?t say very much, and from the little he did say I get the impression that he sees this as ?another? one of the times where I am not happy and he needs to make adjustments and make even more effort. I just wanted him to put his arms around me and tell me that everything would be fine, he loved me loads and that we would sort it out together because that?s what dh & dw do :(

Earlier he emailed me to ask if he should cancel gig tickets we?ve got later this year as he didn?t want to waste time/money on something if it wasn?t that important to me (one of the things I had said last night was that although I appreciated all the ?big? practical things he does, eg paying for our family holiday/outings, funding the tyres on my car as I?m always skint- it?s the little things that impact on how happy I am. I would gladly trade all those things in for him being kind and tolerant and non-judgey and accepting of me. But after his email about the tickets I don?t think he really understands what that means.)

Not really that hopeful that this is going to get any better.

Doesn't seem very supportive really.
I think it's not you, it's him.
Therapy for yourself is one way to decide?

Newname you?re right. His brows got furrowed and he got quite defensive. I was really careful not to accuse him, just to explain how I felt without the whole ?you do x? or ?you never do y? thing. At one point though I did say that I thought he was probably thinking to himself ?she?s having a pop at ME- what on earth is she on about? She wants ME to do something differently I can?t believe it she?s mad? when the problem for me is that there is never any ?blimey, poor Red is feeling so awful the poor thing we must work out how to make things better for her, what can I do??

He?d had a tough time a few years back when he lost his way a bit and was grieving for a very dear friend, the whole year was awful and he was so emotionally distant that I thought for a long time afterwards that he?d had an affair. We talked about it (ish) a while back and he told me that he hadn?t- I believe him- but something that still unsettles me is that he acknowledges it was an awful year for him but has never thought about how it was so horrific for me that I thought he?d been unfaithful fgs.

He says he?s been trying to do more around the house after I last ?had a go? and that whatever he does it?s not good enough for me. I wonder whether we talk entirely different emotional languages- he shows me that he loves me in the way he?d hope to be treated and I show him I love him in the way I would like to be loved. So both ways end up being wrong.

I?m dreading going home.