Thought we were getting back on track - then this!

[Irishchic]

DH and I have been going through some troubles this last couple years. Mostly the usual ups and downs with having a young family and busy lives etc. Our sex life suffered a bit, but lately, in the last couple of weeks I had tried to get things back on track in that department.

We have been getting on much better, and have had sex a few times in the last couple of weeks, and last weekend, I made a big effort, sexy undies, candles, some mild sex toys, to get us in the mood and it really really worked, and we had the best sex we had had in years, I was so pleased, and really hopeful that things were on the up.

Well...tonight we were meeting friends for dinner. We had a quickie yesterday morning and agreed that tonight after we got back from meeting this couple we would spend some more quality time in the bedroom, and we were both looking forward to this.

We were walking to the restaurant chatting, and I asked him to hold my hand, as we havent done this in ages when out. I just felt that we were close, and felt that i could do this. He did hold my hand for a few minutes but then pulled away and said that he would rather not, as he felt uncomfortable with this. (We live in a small town, and he is quite well known in the town as he owns a couple of businesses in the town) and he felt self conscious with this level of public display of affection.

I felt a bit upset about this, and pointed out that we were planning on having sex tonight, and yet he could not even hold my hand in public, (in the dark - 8pm) after 11 years of marriage and 5 kids, I felt that this was a bit, well, horrible to be honest. He replied that if it was something that he was uncomfortable doing then I should not make an issue of it.

But it is not as it I was asking him to snog me in public or anything like that, just to bloody holf my hand. I am really fucking upset about this and needless to say have lost any urge to make love to him tonight as i just feel that if he cannot even do this much for me, then how can I get in the mood for much more intimate stuff later on. I cannot just switch it on once the front door closes behind us. I felt gutted actually, I thought that we were moving on and getting on so much better, emotionally and physically, then this, and he is still making mne feel bad about it. When we got hom, he said that he was sorry that he had spoiled our night but that he justwas not comfortable with this and that I should not be making such a big deal about it.

AM i making a big deal here? Am I asking for too much? It is not as if he is a shy person, he is involved a lot in the local community and has not problems speaking in public. I dont know, just feel totally shit ]about it all now...

golf club i mean!

Yes thumbwitch I agree and I will do that.

It just bothers me as before we went out last night he knew that we were planning on having sex later on, and that we were going to take our time and enjoy it, candles etc.

Yet as soon as we went out the door, he couldnt hold my hand.

I NEVER expect him to do this if we are just our dueing the day, shopping or whatever, but this was nighttime, and we were out on a date for all intents and purposes, so i dont get it..

Actually I think it's more worrying that he can't cuddle you or kiss you, whether sex is on the cards or not. If he knows that you will interpret hand-holding and affectionate gestures as a prelude to sex, then by withdawing that and minimising your feelings about it, he has in effect prevented sex. I suspect he didn't want sex and controlled the situation so it wouldn't happen.

Likewise his obsession with the TV and coming to bed after you, controls the sex you have, without him having to take the responsibility for saying "I'm sorry Nikita, I don't want sex."

Oh shit WWIFN, that is really depressing.

When you put it like that, it sounds pretty bloody obvious doesnt it.

The only physical interaction between is a quick kiss in the lips in the morning before he leaves and in the evening when he gets hom, sometimes he forgets to do this, but that doesnt bother me unduly, as our house is chaotic at breakfast time and evening time with the kids, so i dont read too much into that.

But I felt that he was looking forward to sex, although he did say jokingly to me, "you'll be lucky" sort of thing, and I teased him about not getting to watch Match of the Day (although he did RECORD it) but maybe subconsciously he didnt want it all along and just sabotaged it in this way.

Dont know what to do now. Guess it will come up in the session tomorrow, but I cant see this being solved without some serious soul searching on his part, and he is not the type to do that. I am stuck.

hi Nikita, sorry for brief reply, but I really don't think this man is going to give you what you want

and, more worryingly, he is controlling you by choosing (within his own agenda) to dangle/withdraw the very things that he knows would make you happy

i don't like the sound of him (I have also read your other threads...)

Yes Anyfucker, have appreciated your advice.

Sadly you are probably right.

I thought that i could improve things, and that even if they were not fully what I needed, that it would be enough for me to be content with.

However, I would not like to think that I am being deliberately controlled. I always felt that he was just thoughtless, clueless, in the way that men can often be.

However, if this is a deliberate, controlling thing, then that is different, very different, and I do not think I can live with that.

nik, only you know if there is a more considered element to his "cluelessness and thoughtlessness", because you live with him

FWIW, I do think that thoughtless and clueless men, if they wish to make their partners happy, or want to continue to invest in their relationship, can change

but they have to want to, very much

and if they don't see a need to, or it serves them in some way to keep you on the back foot, then you are wasting your time

think very carefully about how much you alone can do, without his full cooperation

and how much that constant worry and effort you are putting into flogging a dead horse, is taking emotional energy away from yourself, and your children

is he worth that?...only you know the answer to the question

I may be way out of line here, but since it's been opened up to the floor I'm just going to offer my opinion...

As I've been reading this thread, the more information you give about his behaviour, his detachment, his location-specific avoidance of PDA, his emotional distance, the more I'm inclined to at least psoe the question: could it be possible he's having an affair with someone local?

Sorry, I feel awful saying this and I don't want to make you feel worse. It's just been niggling at me as this thread has progressed and I wondered whether it was an explanation you'd ever considered.

MW, I had a horrible little dig in the ribs about that too

The reluctance to hold your hand in your home town, but ok to do it elsewhere ??

What has he got to hide...and who is he hiding it from ?

Just a thought...dismissable immediately Nik, if you feel it inappropriate

oh me too - sorry - I did very cryptically allude to it in an earlier post and wondered whether or not the OP would pick up on it.

Madonna - that was one of the first questions I asked myself when this problem began to manifest itself.

I am 99% sure that he is not, for several reasons, i feel that he has no opportunity, and I also feel that it would be against his moral code, and the high standards he has set himself to live up to. Also he could not bear the social disapproval that would result from being discovered playing away from home.All these reasons and more, I really doubt it.

But anything is possible and I could not rule it out 100%.

Anyfucker - Again, very pertinent questions and difficult questions for me to think about.
I guess i will bring it up in our joint counselling session tomorrow and see what comes of it.

He kept on saying he was sorry to me this morning for upsetting me and spoiling the evening, but when I asked him did that mean he was prepared to hold my hand from time to time from now on, he just said that he couldnt answer that question, so I feel like, well what is the point in apologising for causing upset but then refusing to address the behaviour that caused the upset,it really isnt a big ask, and if he cannot just get over himself and do this for me, then, I will just naturally withdraw from him and from the physical side of our relationship because I am sick of making all the effort here, effort to improve that quantity and quality of our sex life, effort to improve our communication, effort to be more thoughtfulk to his needs etc etc, Fuck it I have had enough. I am NOT GOING TO TRY ANY MORE..I am all out of effort.

You are right that the amount of bloody emotional energy I have invested in him is not paying returns and I am just going to have to think about myself now, and he can like it or lump it.

Me too. He's a pillar of the community but he doesn't mind the community seeing him carrying on like an overgrown schoolboy on a night out with his mates--but is embarrassed to be seen holding hands with his wife and the mother of his children?
Agree with the great WWIFN too of course.
And the rushing ahead of you is just as bad as the not holding hands. Would he even think of behaving like that if he were walking with anyone else? It's just plain rude.

awww, nikita x

Thumbwitch, i did pick up on that but as I said above I dont think there is an affair, to be bloody honest I almost wish there was as at least there would be a sensible explanation for his emotional detatchment!

Nikita you may have seen me say on other threads that in RL and on these threads, I have lost count now of the number of men and women who invest huge energy into rescuing their failing relationships, believing their partners to be depressed, stressed or physically ill. Worse still, are the people who take the blame for the marriage having hit the buffers and point to the flaws in their own character and their own behaviour that has led to that point.

And then they find out that there was an affair going on all the time. .

Now this might not be the case, but do challenge some of your beliefs about lack of opportunity and your H's moral code. There is always opportunity, even if it is not being at work/golf/out with the lads. And you don't need me to tell you how quickly morals go out of the window where lust and the addiction of an affair takes hold.

For your own sanity, do some digging and rule it out or in as a possibility. It seems to me that decision-time is imminent, so with any decision-making process, it makes sense to have all the information to hand.

If there isn't an affair going on, at the very least you are married to someone who doesn't appear to have the capacity to meet your perfectly normal need for intimacy. I suspect that's too big a need to bargain away for the sake of the happy family, but only you can decide on that.

I understand exactly why if you found out there was an affair, there would be relief, because it would explain so much - and the clearer picture would help with your decisions.

Yes, sometimes even something as awful as an affair is better than not knowing WTF is going on. There is another wee niggle going on in my head as well but it's way out there.. I almost don't like to suggest it but I suppose you are 100% convinced he is straight, yes?

"If there isn't an affair going on, at the very least you are married to someone who doesn't appear to have the capacity to meet your perfectly normal need for intimacy. I suspect that's too big a need to bargain away for the sake of the happy family, but only you can decide on that."

Yes WWIFN i would rather discover that my dh was having an affair, becuase whilst that would be devastating, it would still be easier than realising that he just cannot and never will be able to give me the intimacy that I need. Then I would have a very hard decision to make. I would find it very hard to justify leaving him on the basis of a lack of real intimacy, it seems almost frivolous to me, when he is in many other ways a good husband and father.

I often check his text messages and e mails (yes, awful I know, but only because I am trying to figure out WTF is going on in his head and becuase I have wondered if there is another woman...have NEVER seen one message or anything to give me cause for concern...

Thumbwitch - Re the Gay question, I have asked myself that too, (believe me I have asked myself all the possible questions!) and I dont know, he appears and always has appeared straight, does not have any kinky sex tastes that I know of...he is overly reliant on his lad friends, particularly one, but I think this is entirely brotherly, but then again, what do I really know...he is quite homophobic, which I sometimes think is an indicator for men who are repressed homosexuals, but actually around here, (rural Northern Ireland) most men I know are quite homophobic in their views, (racist at times too) they just are incredibly immature and very behind the times when it comes to tolerance.

I wonder how much being brought up in an all male household, (apart from very quiet mum) and having no big physical affection from parents and then going to an all male boarding school from 11 to 18 has to do with his attitudes and issues....

Sex and intimacy is all that divides you from being two friends who are living in the same house. Wanting that is not frivolous, Nikita.

Sometimes I think I could just settle for that if we were even friends. Friends respect and support each other, and are thoughtful of each other, I am not sure we even have friendship at times.

Doesn't sound like a friendship from what you've described Nikita :(

My friends care about my feelings and my happiness.

So it isn't frivolous at all to want sex, intimacy and friendship in a marriage, then.

No its not frivolous, i wouldnt blame anyone else for walking out of a marriage where they felt starved of intimacy. Its just that he is so good in other ways, just not those ways that I feel I would be throwing away the happiness and security of my children just because I felt a bit lonely in my marriage.

I hoped that I could fix this, I have worked on my own faults and things really had improved. The last couple of weeks felt good, and then all of a sudden we are back to square one, the ground shifts beneath my feet, I am always running to stand still.

I feel like I have nothing left to give here anymore. I really really need him to start receiprocating in some way, or else we do not have a future, least not the future that i had hoped for.

My DH used to be the same, except that he is Turkish, and we live in Turkey.

Here, apparently (or so he told me after refusing to hold my hand in our home town some years ago), his peers would tease him and think he was 'under the thumb' if he was seen to be affectionate with his wife in public. Being seen to be 'macho' is very important here.

However, he would hold my hand in a strange town - presumably because he didn't know anyone there and wouldn't see them again, so no-one could tease him.

He has got over himself since then and taken my stance - that it is no-one's business but our own, and he can now stand up to peer pressure.

Another Turkish thing is that men walk in front of their wives. He never did this, but people from rural areas still do.

I don't know that this is terribly helpful for you but I'm wondering if your DH's basic culture is a little like this. Even though he was happy to hold hands in the early days, people tend to go back to their roots the older they get.

Yes i recognise a lot of what you say longgrass, except that is is not really in the culture here not to hold the woman's hand, in that I see loads of guys who are happy to do so, from both the young and the older generation.

I can see how it would seem to these guys that holding the wife's hand is like being under the thumb. I notice my dh always gives out about couples where the woman is more dominant, he nearly takes it personally if he knows a couple where the guy seems to "toe the line" or be under then thumb, guys like that are very much the subject of my dh, and his friends derision.

And it is true that they get more traditional as they get older. That bodes badly for us then, as I have no intention of being silent and submissive, like his mum, (and she is a lovely lady, just very very deferential to her dh) and I cannot be like that, it just isnt in me.

DH got home tonight and brought the whole issue up again, asking him what it was I wanted him to say.

I told him that I wanted to be able to walk down the street in our home town and take his hand or link his arm without him pulling it away because of feeling awkward or uncomfortable.

He then said he had never walked hand in hand with any girlfriend, or as he put it "paraded down the street where I work hand in hand with you or anyone and it was never an issue before now"

He said that he didnt need that "reassurance" and that he was confident in our relationship the we did not need to parade down the street like that.

He DID say that he would link arms if it made me feel happier, (though he felt that this too was OTT) but no hand holding.

He also went on to say that he could not believe that this was STILL hanging over us 24 hours later and putting the last few weeks where we have been getting on, in jeopardy.

He said he found it "pathetic" that this issue had taken on such significance. I asked him was he calling ME pathetic and he stressed that he found our "situation" pathetic, which I suppose is a bit different but still made me feel like shit.

I said that HE was the one who brought it up tonight, not me, and he countered that it was OBVIOUS that I was still pissed off.

He said he was ASTOUNDED at how much of a big deal I am making about this, and that is just proves how much we need counselling.

He has now left to go to an exercise class and I feel stressed, anxious, under attack and ambushed.