Should we accept this apology if we know the person doesn't mean it?

[DisturbingMachines]

DH and I fell out with my mum two years ago over something we felt very strongly about, we, and our two DC (mostly) haven't had any contact with her since.

There was a flurry of heated emails and texts for about a month after the initial row, and when we felt it was just going round and round in circles we stopped and just ignored anything she sent.

During those emails/texts it became apparent to us that she was trying to manipulate (essentially) me by

-Using my Christian faith to make me agree with her i.e. quoting 'honour thy father and mother' at me, and 'isn't Christianity all about forgiveness?' which I found hypocritical as she is contemptuous of religion.

-Using my past mental health problems (when I've been OK for at least the past 10 years) to insinuate that I don't agree with her because I'm mentally ill i.e. 'you've got a problem and you need help', or 'you're losing the plot'

She did see DD1 through my dad (they're divorced) at first, but because she started accusing him of trying to sabotage her seeing DD1 (when he was enabling her to do it) we said we didn't want DD1 to get involved any more. Recently she turned up at dads house and saw DD1 behind our backs, putting DD1 in a terrible position as she knew we didn't want her to see her, so I take from this that mum thinks her rights as a grandparent outweigh ours as parents, which I don't agree with.

She thinks we don't let DD1 see her to 'punish' her, but we see it as trying our best to keep DD1 out of it, not always possible of course but as much as we can.

We've also found out that she's given copies of the emails we sent initially to a solicitor to give to DD1 after she's (mum) died so DD1 can see what was said. This I find to be very difficult to comprehend for someone who says they love their grand-daughter, to put such a responsibility onto her to read them and, as I see it, to try to ruin mine and DD1s relationship from 'beyond the grave'.

She sent two emails to me recently saying she doesn't regret what the initial argument was about, but she regrets how she went about it. But at the same time she sent a text to my dad saying 'she's [me] obviously still got [mental health] problems and needs help and everyone I've told agrees with me'.

We always said if she said something along the lines of what she actually wrote in her email we would try to build bridges because she was just so angry before, but we're not sure how to feel knowing that she's still coming out with the same shit trying to 'win' the argument by essentially squashing me and who I am.

I really apologise for the length of this, it's hard to know what to write as I'm sure you're aware these things get a tad complicated, but that's the kind of crux of it, I don't want to drip feed, but it's hard to anticipate what posters are going to pick up on.

I know we're only seeing one side of the story, and in some aspects she has been a good mother to me, but to be frank I haven't missed her and don't mind no contact, but it's the DC I feel for, she hasn't even met DD2.

I/we just find it incredibly hard to get over what's happened (especially the solicitors emails) but every time we get to a point of 'everything's calmed down, should we make contact' some other ranting email gets sent by her and we're back to square one.

I'd be really grateful if you could give me your take on this, we're really at a loss now.

What did you fall out about? I can't work out who is over reacting without knowing why you split with your mum.

I have not fully read you post, what I have taken from it is the apology is not satisfactory to you, that you are fearfull of a change in circumstances of no contact and you are angry that this has come to an end without the issues being dealt with. I also suspect you prefer life as it is and don't want mil in your life and are scared to admit that!

This is more about you and your feelings than about who is right or wrong and the whole arguments details!

I doubt you are going to be told you were right all along etc, it must have been hard for mil to back down and give the half apology, I imagine you were not perfect 100% of the time have you apologised?

apologises not mil, mum!

Thanks for answering wineandroses.

I didn't put why because I was trying to keep the OP as short as I could without rambling.

Mum and dad split up shortly before the argument, mum said she'd like to move to the town we live in, we thought that was great.

Then she started looking at properties all around our house, I said twice that they might be a bit close as we value our space, and she was very understanding about this.

She saw a house 500 yards from ours and insisted it was a great house, that she would like to buy it when her and dads house sold, I said we were uncomfortable with the closeness of it and she basically went ballistic, 'children don't tell parents where to live' 'I've been selfless all my life now I'm going to be selfish' we were a bit we were only saying how we felt. It was anger totally over the top for what we said and the careful way we said it.

We can understand she was worried about moving out on her own and needed support, we were there for her, but she didn't need to say anything about the house at all as theirs didn't sell for a year anyway and the house down the road had sold by then.

I took from this that it wasn't about the house at all, but more about the way she thinks about things, 'you must not disagree with me or I'll have a tantrum'.

I agree we can't tell her where she can live, of course not, but I suppose I presumed she would accept and acknowledge our feelings on it, which she has never done.

Not sure that makes sense, or just sounds petty after all this time.

I did say things that perhaps could have been said in a less angry way mummiehunnie, I haven't spoken or written to her for two years so haven't apologised for the way I spoke to her.

I haven't contacted her because she was obviously so angry still that I felt there was no point, nothing had changed or progressed for her in how she thought about the situation in the two years.

Well in my view there may be some/a lot of value in your children having some contact with their grandparents - though I speak as someone with a child who regularly talks about her grandparents even though they have all died - she 'remembers' our memories. Can I suggest you talk to your dc re contact with grandparents and if all agree set up one meeting with some strict rules then take it from there. But remember you have control - on your children's behalf. Forget all the crap that's gone before if you can - try to move forward but using your criteria not mother's.

I wonder if you are hiding and ashamed that you don't and did not want to support your mother, in her marriage breakup and in her old age, and it was a perfect excuse to not have to deal with her stuff and her to find other sources of support during her marriage breakdown with your father?

It sounds to me as if you like not speaking to her.

To be blunt you sound quite selfish, so it is no wonder you mother reacted the way she did, many people would not have said what you did.

I wonder if you are angry at her for something to do with your childhood, and you got your chance when she wanted to move close to you and you could cut contact with her?

I can see what you're saying mummie, but I/we were very close to her and were happy for her to be near us, the break up had been going on for quite a while and I did everything I could to support her and my dad.

She's not 'old' as in in her dotage, and I definately wasn't looking to sever contact.

I'm not ashamed of saying what my opinion was to her, it could come across as selfish, but I see it as trying to protect myself and my family from the kind of person she is.

What kind of person is she? Did she reveal that (only) in the argument over the (potential) move? Or did you know it before (in her role as your mother)? How would she potentially damage your dd? Or you?

Obviously, you don't need to answer any of those questions; it's more that your situation, and what you say, prompts them.

I can completely understand that there are other issues between you and your mother, but, actually, I can see that she would have been hurt by your trying to put her off buying a property she liked. If it was next door, or in the same block/row as you, I could understand that you might feel claustrophobic, but 500 yards is quite a way. It's not so close that she could chatter over the fence at you but it is close enough that should anything happen to either of you, the other would be on hand quickly. And actually, whether she said it 'incorrectly' or not, she is quite right - you don't get to choose where she lives!

From what you say, she does sound rather extreme in her reactions, but it sounds to me that she was at quite a vulnerable time in her life and might have felt she wanted and needed your support, but in fact got the brush off.

Of course, I may have totally misunderstood the situation, and if so, I apologise, but it does sound an extreme reaction from both of you at a stressful time.

Moving forward, I guess, depends on what you ultimately want. If you want a relationship with her, or for your Dcs to have one, a way needs to be found to facilitate this without kow towing to her. Maybe a note, stating that you realise you cannot change what has happened, but that it is a shame that the children are missing out just because the two of you fell out. Maybe invite her to meet for a coffee or to join you and the children in the park or somewhere else neutral? Could your DH help out?

Hope you get it sorted.

There is a pattern to language of those that are deluding themselves over certain issues, and I believe that you are ashamed that you looked selfish and you are ashamed that you did not want to support you mother after he marriage broke up, once you are honnest with youself, you may be able to look at why that is and why you feel you are protecting your family from you mother!

Animula - you accept negative parts of your parents unquestioningly because you love them and know that's not the whole of who they are.

I obviously knew she is a highly manipulative person who doesn't like to lose face and has to be seen by others as a decent and moral person, which in reality may be different.

I accepted that part of her as it was overridden by her postitive points, that is, up to the point where it would significantly impact on my family life with DH and DC, which I thought the move to a few doors down would do.

Sayithowitis - I totally agree that she would have been hurt by what we said, and she was vulnerable, but does that justify they way she's acted and is still acting to other people? They're not easily forgotten things and evidence in my mind of the type of person she is. I have written to her a couple of times, but just not sent them.

Disturbingmachines - But she hasn't moved a few doors down from you, so I still think the question about what damage it is that you are trying to protect you children from by withdrawing her contact with them is relevant.

Withdrawing contact is the nuclear deterrent, and tends only to be done in situations of some kind of abuse; emotional or physical. I don't say that lightly. It's an extreme act. You are contracting the sources of relationships and affection for your children, on their behalf. So people don't do it, usually, unless there is a profound cause for it. So that suggests that she abused you in some way as a child or that you are worried she will abuse your children. That's why I ask.

Are you suggesting that she has mental health issues, and has had for years? If that's the case, whether the apology is "sincere" or "insincere" is neither here nor there, the question is rather about whether she's OK to be in the life of your children, or yourself.

Clearly, I know no more about this situation than the words you have written here, but assuming that your action was taken with thought and consideration, and with the best interests of all concerned at its heart, then, surely, the "sincerity" of the apology is a side-issue?

Animula, the fact that she didn't need to say anything about the house down the road, that she knew how we felt about her living so close, says to me that she said it because she wanted us to know she could, if she chose, affect the immediate space we lived in and wanted us to know that beyond doubt.

For her to be so angry at us for two years and never try to make positive contact does make me question why, for so long, she has taken an aggressive tack if our relationship meant anything to her.

Her having mental health problems, hmmm, they have been mentioned in the past. But after the way she used my past problem to try and hurt me and get other people to see me as mentally ill, I wouldn't like to brush her off as having a problem like that. Issues that need resolving definately, mental health problems probably not.

Animula, I was thinking along the same lines, that op blames her mother (not at the stage of seeing fathers part yet) counciously or uncounciously for childhood abuse and is having problems admitting it to herself, seemes to be hiding things, feeling shame etc, at the end of the day op seems to be looking for a justification to not have contact with her mother and now mother has apologised op's game has been cut through, I tend to think that op and op's mother are both emotional abusive and both could do with getting professional help, as this situation is unhealthy if op can't admit to abuse!

We posted at a similar time, well if you and your mother have mental health issues and i suspect that you and your oh have an unhealthy relationship, i would imagine it is symbiotic and controlling by the languauge you are using, the best advice would be to ask your gp to send you for psychotherapy, you owe it to your children to untangle your situation!

But now I feel you are doing the same as my mum mummie, brushing off the way I feel/felt about the situation as a consequence of being mentally ill, rather than because I have a right to feel how I do and express that opinion.

I can unequivocably say that the mental health issues I had previously are no longer significant in my life, and I have said that I wouldn't say my mum is mentally ill either, everyone has issues that need resolving, but it's not always a follow on that they're mentally ill.

You're also reading into my OP that mine and DHs relationship is unhealthy, which is also definately not the case (and I'm not hiding that from myself).

You know, I do think you can question your parents' behaviour, and you don't have to have a + and - balance-sheet.

I really think you need to think a bit more about the relationship you and she (and probably the rest of your family) have with each other.

Sorry, but I think mummiehunny is right that there is more to this, that it probably isn't the most optimal relationship, and you could do with talking it all through with someone. And if not talking, perhaps writing? Opening a file on your computer and writing, writing it all out? It can be an insightful experience.

I'm not going to pry, and I (obviously) don't know nearly enough to do anything other than just throw suggestions, and questions. And I also worry that all of the above may already be more assertive and less questioning than the information warrants.

I'm only a person on the internet, after all!

Disturbingmachines - I honestly don't think mummiehunnie is trying to do that. I suspect she's doing what I';m doing, and offering possible interpretations, which you can poke at, and see if they fit.

I really don't know enough to state anything as anything other than a " ....?" Though I know it can feel very different to read that on the internet.

What makes you say I am brushing you off, I am taking the time and giving you my experience, I am being harsh which I feel is needed to cut through your game.

I think you have big concerns regarding family mental health issues and that is why you told us about it and keep making a big deal about the issues you and your mother have, you brought it to the attention on this thread! I think you are very fearful that the mental health issues are the reason behind the issues you and your mother have, and you have the clue there to answer your qunadry deal with what her and your mental health issues were and you will be able to deal with your poor relationship you both have!

Everyone has a right to an opinion, to agree,disagree etc, who said you did not?

ok, well we give ourselves away in the language we use sometimes, and you have given yourself away in a few ways to me. The way you speak about your dh is of a symbiotic nature, which is in it's self not healhy and usually is mutually parasitic.

I could not agree with you more than people have issues that need resolving, what I have noticed when discussing your issue is that you continually bring up mental health issues in your family, I suspect you would feel more satisifed if you let go of the blame game, come out of denial and you would do better to think about that rather than who should live where and solicitor letters!

Have you looked at the stately homes thread?

It is difficult isn't it animula, I feel uncomfortable 'spilling my guts' so to speak, but we don't talk about it to anyone else apart from my dad, and I acknowledge it is only from our 'side'.

Why I wrote this thread is that I value everyone's opinion on it, and thank you and the other posters for taking the time to write. I do accept mummiehunnies view and find it helpful, but I can only write how I see it at the minute and how I feel about it.

Who is "we" that does not talk about "it" and what is "it" can you name then?

I suspect you are hearing me and that you don't want to, again your languauge gives you away.

I would definatly ask for some psychotherapy to deal with the family relatinship issues you have if not for yourself for your children, it won't do them any good to have this passed down yet another generation in this day and age!

good luck x

Disturbingmachines - mummihunnie's advice on reading the stately homes thread is good, too, and v. easy (and private) to do.

I have to go now. Good night to you both.

'We' is DH and I, as we have talked about what has happened with mum and how we both feel about it, but not to other people.

Thank you for posting mummie, I really do appreciate it.

Thanks again animula