Should we accept this apology if we know the person doesn't mean it?

[DisturbingMachines]

DH and I fell out with my mum two years ago over something we felt very strongly about, we, and our two DC (mostly) haven't had any contact with her since.

There was a flurry of heated emails and texts for about a month after the initial row, and when we felt it was just going round and round in circles we stopped and just ignored anything she sent.

During those emails/texts it became apparent to us that she was trying to manipulate (essentially) me by

-Using my Christian faith to make me agree with her i.e. quoting 'honour thy father and mother' at me, and 'isn't Christianity all about forgiveness?' which I found hypocritical as she is contemptuous of religion.

-Using my past mental health problems (when I've been OK for at least the past 10 years) to insinuate that I don't agree with her because I'm mentally ill i.e. 'you've got a problem and you need help', or 'you're losing the plot'

She did see DD1 through my dad (they're divorced) at first, but because she started accusing him of trying to sabotage her seeing DD1 (when he was enabling her to do it) we said we didn't want DD1 to get involved any more. Recently she turned up at dads house and saw DD1 behind our backs, putting DD1 in a terrible position as she knew we didn't want her to see her, so I take from this that mum thinks her rights as a grandparent outweigh ours as parents, which I don't agree with.

She thinks we don't let DD1 see her to 'punish' her, but we see it as trying our best to keep DD1 out of it, not always possible of course but as much as we can.

We've also found out that she's given copies of the emails we sent initially to a solicitor to give to DD1 after she's (mum) died so DD1 can see what was said. This I find to be very difficult to comprehend for someone who says they love their grand-daughter, to put such a responsibility onto her to read them and, as I see it, to try to ruin mine and DD1s relationship from 'beyond the grave'.

She sent two emails to me recently saying she doesn't regret what the initial argument was about, but she regrets how she went about it. But at the same time she sent a text to my dad saying 'she's [me] obviously still got [mental health] problems and needs help and everyone I've told agrees with me'.

We always said if she said something along the lines of what she actually wrote in her email we would try to build bridges because she was just so angry before, but we're not sure how to feel knowing that she's still coming out with the same shit trying to 'win' the argument by essentially squashing me and who I am.

I really apologise for the length of this, it's hard to know what to write as I'm sure you're aware these things get a tad complicated, but that's the kind of crux of it, I don't want to drip feed, but it's hard to anticipate what posters are going to pick up on.

I know we're only seeing one side of the story, and in some aspects she has been a good mother to me, but to be frank I haven't missed her and don't mind no contact, but it's the DC I feel for, she hasn't even met DD2.

I/we just find it incredibly hard to get over what's happened (especially the solicitors emails) but every time we get to a point of 'everything's calmed down, should we make contact' some other ranting email gets sent by her and we're back to square one.

I'd be really grateful if you could give me your take on this, we're really at a loss now.

Right so you have told this thread what you and your dh think about "IT" what ever "it is, so what do you as an individul think?

There is a great deal of "we" "us" "our" etc, it it you do the thinking and your oh going along with you, or is he doing the thinking and you going along with him?

It is healthy to have individual thoughts, married or not!

DH and I have obviously talked about what happened and how things are now, and I keep saying I/we because we are both in the relationship and what happened affected us both, not just me.

I take your point that I've written the OP but keep saying we, I just included him in my posts because we happen to agree, and I can see how it may seem.

OP, your mother sounds awful.
I can well understand your not wanting to have her on your doorstep. It's also understandable that she would be hurt by your saying so, but her response is completely out of proportion.
Please do read the stately homes threads. In fact it might be useful for you to repost there--the regulars have vast experience with exactly these kinds of issues.

I am being harsh which I feel is needed to cut through your game

What game?

OP, your mother sounds like the one who has issues, not you. She apologises, but sends texts to your dad saying that you have problems & that she has told people & they agree. So she thinks it is OK to share your past health issues with anyone she likes?

I am sorry, but putting you down behind your back, after sending an apology says to me, that she doesn't mean her apology & that she just wants contact for herself & to make herself feel better. And really, did she say the word 'sorry' or "I apologise" because regretting something, isn't the same as saying sorry!

The sincerity of the apology isn't a side issue. I would wonder why she has apologised if she didn't mean it. To me, the only reason I would come up with is that of an intent to manipulate & control. The fact that you say she didn't need to mention the house, again, manipulation! She was saying to you, that she has the power to live where she wants & your opinions on the subject don't matter.

I don't agree that people only ever cut contact after abuse of some kind. It can happen after one incident, as it is did with me. Although that incident was the last straw.

Only you can decide what you need to do, but if you decide to resume contact, know that you need to be very careful as her need to control & manipulate is going to be ever present.

If you do decide to resume contact, you need to ask her to request the emails back from the solicitor & destroy them & any other copies she has. Giving these to the solicitor is basically her way to control from 'beyond the grave' as it were. Why would a loving mother/grandmother want to show a child something like that!? To manipulate. To show you off in a bad light to your dd. To redefine your relationship with your dd. To ruin it.

I don't think you are selfish for airing your views over the close locale of the house. You spoke up for yourself & your family, which, if you asked here, that is exactly what you would be told to do.

This is why my children won't meet my mother. Because she would do anything/everything in her power to hurt them, because she knows that would crush me. That way, she has won. All she wants is to hurt me, to punish me & knows my children being hurt would achieve that!

It is healthy to have individual thoughts, married or not

Yes & in a situation such as this, it is most important that your partner agrees with you & supports your decisions & choices & your reasons for them.

I can quite clearly see what the OP thinks, as an individual actually!

I have to agree with whoever said that withdrawing contact from the grandchildren is a totally nuclear act.
I would need to be very sure that a parent was going to actively hurt my child or damage their self esteem or my relationship with them before I would even think about doing that.

I would say her reactions ( in sending email to the solicitor) can be seen as controlling from beyond the grave. But could also be seen as a desperate woman who wants her grandchild to know that she actively tried to see them.

Actually she sounds desperate and misguided all the way through but underlying most of her actions seems to be a layer of hurt and lonliness.
Maybe she desrves to be alone and isolated. But I think I would start acting pretty oddly if my son didn't want me to move near him ( although I wouldn't anyway ) and then stopped me seeing his children .

Whatever happens I hope you find some resoloution because this woman clearly wants to be in her grandchildren lives and in yours. If it proves impossible for you to accept that would be sad

Hi DM,

I would concur with the post made my differentnameforthis.

OPs mum has previously described herself as "selfless" - hmmm. That word can be used to manipulate in its own way as well. Its another way of saying, "look at what I've done for you you ungrateful so and so" (another common tactic used by toxic parents). Its sounds to me like your Mum just wants her own way all the time and woe betide you if you do not.

What does your Dad think of her behaviour?. To me it sounds like he has acted as a bystander throughout.

I don't also think DM's mum so much wants to be a part of their lives as to be able to try and manipulate the children even more actually.

I don;t think your Mother has even begun to accept any responsibility for her actions here and there has been no meaningful apology from her (expressing regret is not the same as a full apology). What she has tried to do is use your faith and long since past mental health issues against you so blame is transferred to you. Those are all actions of a toxic parent.

The "stately homes" thread may be useful to you.

I totally agree with all those laying the blame at your toxic mother's door, I think it is her with the problem not you.

I want to say right here that I am projecting as I have a terribly difficult relationship with my mum and might be overstating this.

I know these things are not black and white, but I feel her behaviours are manipulative, hurtful and utterly disregarding of your feelings.

I have a toxic mother. What worked for me was totally freezing her out many years ago (I had no choice, I was at the point of breakdown over it all), and 'coming back' after six months much more resolute and calm ie I did not respond and still don't to any guilt tripping or frankly bonkers emails and texts. I am measured and kind to her but I shut a door in my head when she starts her shit and I either mentally or physically walk away.

The email to solicitor thing is the kind of my mum might do. It clearly shows she is only thinking of herself, not you or your children. Desperate she may be to show your dc she cared, but she is not thinking about how much this would fuck up your dc in later years.

My advice would be to ignore well meaning peole who bang on about her being your only mother/family etc, so what? Anyone else this damaging would be out of your life right?

If you can't have her in your life because it's too stressful, don't. Yes it's sad, of course it is. But what's sad is that you have not had a mother who loved you unconditionally and does not know or respect you.

xx

This is a ridiculous argument and your reaction to it has caused a major breakdown in your relationship. 500 yards is actually a big distance. You wouldn't be able to see each other, so once you get beyond that distance it really doesn't have an impact.

You know this will come back to bite you, don't you? You are teaching your DD to bear grudges and cut people out of her lives. Just make sure you don't argue when she is older - you'll find it is you out in the cold because you dared to suggest doing something she disagrees with.

To name but a few and mainly, "Now I've got you..........", "kick me".... there are names for the emotional games people play, op and her mother play the same games from what she has told us.

The father is a relationship triangulator by the sounds of it, that sort loves the power of control and I suspect he has always had the power behind the relationship and the mother has always looked the bad guy, this is why I suggested statley homes thread, I can spot dysfunctional family's with emotional abuse and this appears to be one, as I said before it is not about the argument it is about the relationships and long held grudges, also power and control!

Thanks for the pointer to the stately home threads quiddity, I'll check them out.

You're right differentname, there was no explicit apology in her emails, and we didn't expect one. When I said we were waiting for her to send what she said, it was to see that she wasn't so angry at the situation rather than 'she must back down and admit she was wrong', it's not about right or wrong but her acknowledgement that we have a right to an opinion.

Dad isn't a bystander, he's confused and hurt by what's happened in their break up, he allows himself to still be manipulated by her and we understand the reasons behind that.

She does just want contact with the DC, and sent the emails for her own reasons as they're about her, which I suppose the same could be said about us.

Pagwatch, how she's behaved are the desperate acts of a hurt and lonely person, but I've seen it again and again with other people in her life, it seems her pride and 'face' is essential above all else, but she can't expect others to accept being treated the way she's treated us in such a destructive way for two years and for us to accept it unquestioningly.

You've got it exactly right, you wouldn't move near your DS or threaten to, and that's the difference. When mum and dad moved to our old house it was deliberately so they weren't near either set of their parents, so she knows exactly how we felt and was deliberately obtuse.

Proudngld, to let her into our lives is to accept she will act like she has again and again, which she's shown is a conditional love, this stops me from letting her in.
DD1 knows she wants to see her, we've not slagged her off to her, just explained why we find her behaviour difficult.

Lougle, I accept the message sending out to DD as the consequence of this, we've not taken the decision lightly i.e. we'd never 'use' our own DC who we love above all else to point score.

I won't be posting on this thread again, again all I see is "we, us etc" you seriously do not seem to have an opinion of your own, scapegoating "We find her behaviour difficult" maybe she finds "your" you as an individual and you the three of you which some people could say are ganging up on her, stopping her having contact with her grandchildren, and your father Mr Perfect blamless in you black and white thinking allowing her sneaky contact behind your back, and still he is innocent and she is the wicked one!!!

Your family behaviour is not healthy, I hope for your childrens sake you get psychotherapy before you hurt them anymore, it is all about "we, us etc" where are the needs of the children, even abusive parents/ grandparents can have supervised contact, you seem to want to have no contact for your own issues, from childhood abuse or from your mental health problems and family delusions I don't know, I wish you well

Thanks for your time and opinion mummiehunnie.

Hi DM,

Re your comment:-

"Dad isn't a bystander, he's confused and hurt by what's happened in their break up, he allows himself to still be manipulated by her and we understand the reasons behind that".

And that is precisely why he is a bystander; he has not managed to protect you from her full excesses of behaviour. Such men usually act out of self preservation and want of a quiet life.

I still believe you acted as you did primarily because of your mother's actions. She caused this and she refuses to accept responsibility for her actions. Many such toxic people never take or accept responsibility for their actions. Its easier to blame others for their own failings as parents.

You've hit the nail on the head Attila, he has always wanted the quite life and 'let' her have control over things finances/decisions etc (he says to make her happy), but if he ever expressed an opinion disagreeing with her she'd use tantruming emotional blackmail so he'd think twice about doing it again.

It's her refusal to accept we have a right to say something she might not like that's difficult to accept, not to say where she lives, but to have feelings about it and say them out loud.

My OP outlines how I see she blames us speaking up that's 'made' her act how she has, rather than her perhaps accept that the way she chose to act may have affected us.

Mummiehunnie, your own language is rather revelatory. You sound as though you are very much enjoying the role of truthsayer, and that you are motivated by the pleasurable feelings it gives you than any sincere desire to help the OP towards clarity.

I don't think it's very helpful, and I have never heard anyone who works in or has any real understanding of psychotherapy approach someone with the issues you (wrongly I think) ascribe to the OP with this level of carelessness.

I'd get over to the STately Homes thread if I were you OP.

rather than any sincere desire etc

I don't understand what the problem is if you don't like someone and don't want them in your life, isn't that just the end of it? Don't have them in your life. Nobody is owed a place in your life because of an accident of birth.

Like I said I appreciate mummiehunnies posts, but don't agree wholly with her insistent 2 + 2 = 5 assessment of what I've said, and get the feeling she she's a little annoyed that I wont do as I'm told and use I/me instead of we/us, so probably not a good idea to go on the stately homes threads onebat.

If it were just me Hecate I'd not give her a second thought, but I know the DC would get something from a relationship with her because she does have good qualities, it just seems such a final choice we would be making for our DC and paradoxically I'm finding it hard to accept that she's always going to be angry about it and they'll never see her again.

That's a condtradiction I know, they'd benefit from her but they can't see her, but it's the risk of those benefits being outweighed by the problems contact with her would bring.

Do you think that she would be a good grandmother to them? Don't you fear that the things she did that affected you, she will do again?

I would have to say that on the whole yes she would be Hecate. She was emotionally neglected as a child but she broke that cycle with her own DC and did care and showed her love.

But then again she took more of a parental role with her GC rather than the traditional role grand parents take, which included a belief that her rights and opinion outweighed ours.

She also likes being validated as a person by 'testing' people, so the proposal to move near us was a test to see how we felt about her, and of course when we said we'd feel uncomfortable about it, that must have hurt.

Apart from saying nothing, I'm not sure what else we could have done.

DM

re your comment:-

"She was emotionally neglected as a child but she broke that cycle with her own DC and did care and showed her love".

I would argue that her emotional neglect is still there purely going by her behaviours towards you. I am not convinced therefore that your mum has even begun the process of breaking such a cycle.

Her seemingly constant need for validation and testing of people around her is also to my mind indicative of low self esteem.

Her own parents both taught her some very damaging lessons.

You did not cause this or make her this way. She has actively chosen to act like she does.

My ex-MIL was similar to your Mum but in fairness probably worse. She had the right to say what she wanted and do what she wanted but you didn't have the right to voice your opinion! Both Ex and I were very relieved when she died (sadly sectioned in a mental health unit) Same sort of thing would never ever say sorry but try and gloss over it all and make out it was your fault

I am not going to be scapegoated for your refusal to look at other threads, I am sorry that you feel you don't want to look elsewhere, as I think the stately homes thread is where you need to go!

I am not angray at you at all, sometimes people don't want to leave their games for what ever reason:

I suggest that the quote:

feeling she she's a little annoyed that I wont do as I'm told

is one of your issues and projection, as you are the one telling people where they can and can't live, and can and can't have contact with you and your children!

As I said before I wish you well, not posting was nothing to do with anything other than to stop wasting my time on this thread, I am sad that you won't go to stately homes, if you want to scapegoat me for that, it is purley your choice, I won't take it on!