99% certain DH is having an affair

[RBJ72]

I posted on this forum a few months ago about DH not adapting to family life, wanting more excitement, saying he wondered if there was someone better out there blah blah. WE have been married for 6 years and together for 11. DD arried 18 months ago after several failed attempts at IVF. I am now 17 weeks preganant which happened naturally.

Advice from most was that we should get counselling and that if he wasn't already then he was definitely thinking about having an affair. I asked him outright then if he was having an affair and he said no and I believed him. I suggested counselling and looked into finding one in our area but he wasn't keen.

Since then we have both made more of an effort on the relationship. Trying to go out more. He booked a night away for our anniversary and also bought me a lovely necklace but I'm now thinking that this was all because he was feeling guilty.

I am now 99.9% certain he is having an affair with his secretary. How cliched can you get!? I could understand it if she was 25, blond and nubile but she isn't.

I started to suspect a week or so ago when I saw pictures on his camera of a work night out with them with their cheeks together. He went out to a work' colleague's leaving do last night and I knew she would be there with other people from work. He said he owuld be meeting a few of them beforehand for dinner but when I checked his BB this am I saw a text that suggested that he'd met her for dinner on their own. he also sent her emails over the bank holiday (not saying anything incriminating but why email her on a holiday) and I also found one from her saying she'd like them to spend the afternoon together at a gallery followed by the travel lodge! There were also a couple of others which are definitely evidence that they have more than a work relationship but don't categorically say anything explicit.

So what do I do? I haven't confronted him yet. I feel like him sleep walking and that this isn't really happening. I can't be in the same room as him. All I can think about is how can I cope (emotionally and financially) on my own with 2 kids. What I'm not thinking is how can I save my marriage. Should I be for the sake of DD and the next baby? We have been together for so long that I can't get my head around being apart.

So sorry you are going through this.

You both now hae an oportunity to be totally honest ( however uncomfortable that may be now) with each other. I found honesty the best way forward. If this means that you need to know all the facts of where and when then so be it. However remember that it will be a hugely uncomfortable situation for him - he will be reminded of how stupid/selfish he has been. Nobody likes to be reminded of their faults and also he may not want to hurt you any further - so he may lie about it, but may be honest in his intent to repair his relationship with you. Make it clear to him that the ongoing relationship is what you want and part of that is your need for the facts not your need for ammunition in a future arguement.

I needed the facts so I could judge how deep the deception was. Once I was able to communicate that that was the reason DH gave me the details I needed, but it took months to get to that level of trust.

Good luck - it is a long road but you will come out of it stronger.

Also I read a fantastic book about negotiation called "Getting to YES". I wish I had read it before. It explains how to take the emotion out of situations ( in a business setting but equally useable with personal relationships) and talk about getting good mutually "wise" solutions.

If he is serious about saving your marriage then he has to look for another job. As the senior person in work he has abused his position. Many companies have guidelines about relationships at work & this breaks all the rules.

After a discovery, there are certain things that are indisputable and lies about these issues really hamper recovery. Basic facts such as whether sex took place, how many times, where, who knew about the affair etc. Lies about these absolutes make moving on virtually impossible.

The murkier stuff that is open to misinterpretation or understanding, such as the impression being given to the affair partner and the feelings involved, take ages to unpick and often, an unfaithful partner needs a bit of distance from the situation - and the more objective view of the betrayed partner, to understand what was really happening.

What's the situation now OP? I hope you haven't said that you can forgive and move on from this yet, because in truth, you won't know that yet.

When someone has lied to you for months and has lied to your face with their denials, it makes sense to verify what they are telling you now. This is why hard evidence such as phone bills, e mails, credit card statements, bank statements to check for cash withdrawals - and sometimes, a conversation with the OW are needed to convince you that you are now being told the truth.

It often helps to have a diary to hand to cross-match dates (i.e. the date of the travelodge text) with where he was that day. This helps with the utter sense of bewilderment and gives you back some control, as you become an investigator.

If he is telling you the truth, he will hand over these items in a heartbeat and become instantly transparent. He cannot expect you to trust him again instantly.

The other issue I want you to bear in mind is that lying becomes such a habit, that it becomes difficult to break in such a short space of time. He was lying to you about even the existence of someone else a few short days ago. He is still in the habit of lying and minimising and this is because he wants to save his own skin.

Incidentally if it helps, I doubt very much that he loves this woman or ever saw a future with her. I suspect he has got addicted to the feelings the new relationship generated; the excitement and the buzz.

I hope you have ordered Not Just Friends by Shirley Glass from the internet. You both need to read it.

WWIFN, I haven't said I can forgive him yet. I've said we need counselling to work out if we can get through this.

I got home late from work last night and was waiting for him to volunteer what happened at work re telling the OW that it was all over but he didn't mention anything. Was just being sheepish. Asked me if I was ok this morning and I said No of course not and that I had been waiting for him to tell me what was happening. I have seen other texts that aren't 100% proof but that I can use to see if he is sill lying.

To be revisited this evening...

A friend of mine is in a similar situation so I have been following the thread with interest. Basically in her case, her H has had a close "friendship" with a colleague (now ex-colleague) for about 2 years. Also, nothing terribly incriminating until recently but lots of lunches, just the 2 of them, the odd out-of-hours phone calls and emails. He always deletes things from his email & phone and has it all password protected. She was with him once when he opened his email and there was a message from OW - he quickly shut the email window down again and wouldn't show her the message.

Recently he has become a bit careless - he left his account open, and she saw an email from him to OW. It was very hurtful - him saying that he wouldn't hesitate to f* (using that word) OW if the opportunity arose. When she confronted him, he tried to laugh it off saying it was just an on-going joke. My friend is obviously confused, angry, upset but won't pursue the issue with him.

He refuses to admit that there is anything inappropriate going on. WWIFN you say that full disclosure is imperative. But what if the H just won't do it? I hope this isn't seen as a hijacking of the OP's thread but she may also be faced with continued evasiveness unless she can get hard evidence and that isn't always possible to get in these cases where the affair has been conducted very secretively or hasn't gone to a full-blown physical affair.

Frog if the H "just won't do it" and also won't hand over hard evidence, like I have suggested in my earlier post, then I would conclude that he was lying - and make my decisions accordingly.

This isn't criminal law you see, where you need to prove a case beyond all reasonable doubt, but when someone is telling an improbable story and then won't offer evidence to corroborate, or disprove their claims, the betrayed partner has to weigh up how corrosive that doubt will be to the future marriage.

Also, if an unfaithful party feels that s/he has managed to "get away with it", it often leads to contempt for the betrayed partner and there is no disincentive to betraying them again, especially after the taboo of a first infidelity has been broken.

WRT your friend's situation, her H is treating her with utter contempt and I have no idea how she is not confronting that, or bargaining it away.

You really don't need "proof" that someone is lying, just some logical and rational assessment of how open they are being and how much effort they are giving to be an open book and repair the terrible damage caused.

Let's imagine that our OP's H is telling the truth that no sex took place. Try to empathise with his position for a minute and speculate what we would do in his shoes?

We might perhaps admit that sex in all likelihood would have taken place had the affair not been discovered, while expressing a vain hope that we would have come to our senses beforehand. We might ask the OM to verify our account in some way. We might supply E mails that back up our story or credit card/bank statements to show that no money has been spent on travelodges at the material times. We might recall what we said in response to the request to go to the travelodge. We would hand over all our passwords/phone bills to demonstrate that we now have nothing to hide.

When none of this happens, a betrayed person is entitled therefore to presume that lies are being told.

RBJ I think you know deep down that if he had ended it yesterday, he would have been keen to tell you.

All I can urge you to do is not to bury your head in the sand about this and hope it will go away. Insist on certain things for your own peace of mind.

One of the questions that helps in the wake of discovery is: "Is my partner sorry for what he has done, or sorry for getting caught?"

WWIFN I'm also astounded and very sad that my friend has chosen to bury her head. She is a SAHM with 2 small children - no confidence, very dependant on her H in all honesty. She says that she won't cope on her own. But she's paying a heavy price for letting this go. She is constantly suspicious, doubts him (and herself) all the time, can't sleep at night, has no self-esteem left at all. It can't be worth it. I used to quite like her H - he's clever, self-effacing, funny and not the philandering type - but I can't respect him anymore for what he's put her through. Just goes to show - there's no such thing as not-the-philandering-type.

I agree that by him not coming clean, and by letting her believe the worst, he has actually confirmed her suspicions. But my friend doesn't see it this way - in her mind, as long as he hasn't confessed to anything then she doesn't have to make a decision. She's clinging to this desperate delusion that things are OK, but how much longer can that go on? I suspect he may have "let" her see that email on purpose because he wants out and lacks the courage to be open and honest about it all. But at the end of the day, no-one can force her to leave him. I fear for her mental health long-term though.

WWIFN - thanks, I owe not a small part of my knowledge to your kind steer when dealing with it. (Cannot find my old thread RBJ - sorry)

RBJ - I don't have a happy outcome per se I'm afraid in that we are not together anymore. I am happier now, though, without the de-stabilising presence that he had become within our little family and knowing what I now do.

I'd like to stress my insights were with 20/20 hindsight for the most part but no less valuable for it and if I can help another make a right turn and avoid a wrong avenue I want to.

The book though, read it before all else, get Amazon to fast deliver (not in bookshops) as it has several strategies for how to ask for information from the involved partner as well as coping strategies for you if you begin to obsess etc and what not to do/what isn't ok in terms of communication post disclosure.

Anyway - my tale quickly...

At the time ds was 4 and dd 7mo. 8 years together. Discussing marriage brought up an "I-love-you-but-I'm-not-in-love-with-you" speil.

We did have counselling, RELATE, but at the time the affair was still concealed so in that sense it didn't work.

Our sessions focused, primarily, counsellor: on the reality of splitting up, me: what the hell has happened to get here. Him: been feeling it since before dd, my weight (I had put on a stone), other disparaging stuff.

(so the error here is everyone hears I am the problem but really he was asking me - known, reality, secure to top what he was getting - the new the thrill etc)

Perhaps the Relate counsellor was wiser to it than me and hers was a steer to someone doing what he was actually doing.

I would advise you to research a counsellor carefully. I went for nearness and I had heard of Relate.

It did succeed in as far as he decided to try again at a point a bit afterwards (combined with me switching over from tying myself up into knots of slimming, being attentive etc and asking him not to obstruct a quick house sale). That was 4 months.

...and it would seem he paused the affair at this point although I learned this much later through his personal emails...

The trying again period lasted, in a genuine form, a couple of weeks before further months of disengagement returned eliciting sadness and resentment from me.

He left at my behest end January after I elicited he had "acted coldly to give me no false hopes and it was never going to work for him". I asked him to take the next morning or afternoon off work and to pack for a week.

I spent the next few months agonising over how I lost my children the childhood I wanted for them and how I had allowed something to rot without my knowing.

I learned of the affair five months later when he left his email account open accidently on a visit to the dcs.

In fact he moved in with her the afternoon of leaving (having chosen to take the morning off to pack).

All I have learned about the affair is from my own snooping.

Now - I chose not to say all that initially as it isn't the detail of the failure of my relationship that I want you to draw parallels on. Just the age of kids, the same fantasist reaction to true life responsibility, the same setting up conditions of self-permission.

I think knowing the extent of it is paramount.

He has to disengage.

He has to understand why he did that.

So, yes, go to counselling together. But read Shirley Glass first/during.

And ask him to leave whilst you think. It is cripplingly impossible to deal with this early bit under the same roof. Meet up for the counselling and assume/keep time free to hopefully keep talking post session.

On a minor tangent... I am a stickler for English language and what an amazing language it is for giving away people's intent if you are attuned to it.

You said her text said "the" Travelodge. It might be your write up of it but if it said "the" - the definitive - then it suggests one known to them already ie not "a" Travelodge. Does he tend to have a generic password? Can you log in as him to see if has account activity.

I mean a Travelodge account.

FrogInAJacuzzi I would suggest you try to get your friend to start taking baby steps. So finding out all she can about their finances and storing that information out of the house. Volunteering or something to make her feel worthwhile and someone other than a Wife and mother. Trying to get some kind of job, getting her hair done, getting fitter etc. You may also want to tell her that Womens aid are not just there to help women who have been physically assaulted.

I've ordered Shirley Glass so hopefully that will arrive soon and we should get in to see a Relate counsellor next week.

Summary of last night's conversation:

• He's adamant they haven't slept together but admitted that it may have happened if the affair had gone on longer without being discovered.

• He's almost glad that I've found out now.

• He's told OW that he's going for counselling. She obviously wants him to leave me.

• He gets from her what he doesn't apparently get from me - affection.

-He's split off his hime life to his work life so that it almost didn't seem wrong what they were doing.

-He says he hopes counselling can sort us out but I feel that it's dependant on me changing my behaviour

I know his infidelity is not my responsibility but it's very hard to hear all this stuff.

He says he never knows how I feel about anything and TBH I don't know myself. Maybe DD takes up all the affection and emotion and without knowing it he has suffered because of it. I know this isn't an excuse for him and he knows that too.

He hasn't moved out and we are still in the same bed.

So sorry you're going through this.

As a side note, somebody recommended Nytol, and you shouldn't take anything like that as you're pregnant.

Oh no. What's blatantly missing here is that he has ended things with her. It sounds as though he is telling her that he's got to go through the motions of counselling, but that he doesn't think it will help. He is effectively putting you both on the back burner.

This is too much about you jumping through yet more hoops in order to get him to end the affair and stay with you. However he dresses this up, he is putting responsibility for his infidelity on to you. Please, please don't accept this burden.

It is vitally important that you and he make a distinction between your joint responsibility for your marriage - and his 100% responsibility for his affair. Some affairs are borne out of unhappiness in the marriage, but of course the responsible thing to do if one of the parties is unhappy is to come to the table and try to resolve their grievances. That gives the other partner an opportunity to make changes, but of course in reality that usually means both partners need to change.

What happened here was that your H only voiced any concerns when an affair was underway. Even if he states otherwise, it still comes down to the fact that the efforts you personally made to strengthen your marriage were in vain: he started/continued an affair anyway. I suspect this really isn't about you, or your marriage at all.

Please see the holes in this. You seem to have been jumping through hoops ever since he burdened you with all this in the summer. It's going to have to take a really challenging counsellor to cut through your H's sense of entitlement and your tendency to take wrongly apportioned responsibility.

Do not give him the luxury of having a "choosing time" - please. I know you are pregnant and fear being alone, but if you don't start enforcing some conditions and boundaries now, this will happen again and again.

Has he turned over phone bills and other evidence mentioned in this thread? And given what the marvellous Vertigo noticed about the "Travelodge text", what do you believe now?

RBJ72, I don't know whether this is unhelpful or not but I feel I should say it. Your H sounds repulsive to me and cruel. You are pregnant for crying out loud, what a terrible time to put all this hurt on you. And for what exactly? He is almost glad that you know? Does he want to see you hurt and distraught?

You will make your own decisions obviously but you deserve better than this. You should get tough and throw him out, and even if this isn't permanent then at leats it shows him you won't be messed around.

And your posts are screaming to me that he is not sufficiently sorry :(

Not very good with the emotional stuff, but just to say there is no way anyone can make the OW leave her job because of this affair or not-affair. Her boss has no legal justification for firing her because of a private relationship and, as the H is her superior, if he tried to get her to leave she could sue him. Coupled with the fact that she will resent he has dumped her, this is very likely to happen. So if anyone is going to get another job it has to be him and he must not say anything to her about leaving her job.

Not strictly true Fuschia, as some companies have a "no relationships" rule in the contractual terms and conditions, which if applicable, both parties in this scenario, have contravened.

What ever the case, the manager to whom the OP's H reports will need to establish whether business or performance are likely to be affected by the fall-out from this relationship. Because of the nervousness about litigation (and I agree that there is more nervousness about a sex discrimination case brought by a female, but that's a moot point, see later) it is likely that s/he will call them both in, separately and together, to establish if there are likely to be difficulties working together.

At which point one would hope that one or both of them would admit to there being a strong likelihood of difficulty and that it would be better if they worked separately in future. The senior manager is therefore likely to ask how the affair partners want to resolve the situation (in the hope that one of them will fall on their sword).

If the manager offers a range of solutions, including the option to work together amicably, s/he will have a pretty watertight defence at an employment tribunal, but the issue is whether business or performance are going to be negatively affected. If they are so affected - and it can be proved, then the manager is well within their rights to move one or both of them, because it then becomes a performance management issue.

The earlier moot point is that there is case law of a male manager who was moved following an affair with a female subordinate, because of the fear of a more likely tribunal action from the female. In the event, the male successfully sued the organisation for sex discrimination and won the case. Therefore unless there is a "no relationships" clause, insisting on moving either party is fraught with danger.

In practice, most people are so embarrassed about the situation that they try to move away from the role as quickly as possible, but it is a managerial nightmare and is precisely why some companies have the aforementioned clause.

This is all by the by as he's not going to tell his boss.

He says that OW will probably look for another job anyway but that he can't tell her to do that.

I'm not convinced he's sorry about the affair taking place - he's sorry for the hurt it has caused but I don;t believe he truly regrets it.

Neither is he coming home and telling me "I'm so sorry this has happened. I've been such a fool. I've told her it's all over and that you and DD are the most important things in my life."

The message I seem to be getting is that he's told OW that he's going to give the counselling a go - as if he's got her on the back burner in case it fails.

I've told him all this. I've said that he's responsible for his infidelity and the fact that he was already at it when we were supposed to be working on the relationship does not send off very good signals.

Despite what everyone on this thread is saying it doesn't feel right to ask him to move out.

Someone on the thread suggested making sure we get the right counsellor. What should I be looking for? I've found someone on relate in the area who says she works pyschodynamically and has been qualified for 14 years. Any advice on this appreciated.

oh and I meany to say that a lot of your comments and advice have been really helpful when confronting DH so thank you everyone!

2 questions, as in a rush.

Has he ended it with OW and do you have proof?

Has he given you his phone bills, passwords etc. and are you still checking his phone?

More later.

Oh and one more thing. It's a simple question, but I really want you to think about it.

If you don't think he's sorry and regrets it - and he's not showing he's sorry - why are you staying with him?

They haven't spoken properly but he's told her he's going for counselling.He's talking to her properly tomorrow so will see what he says when he comes home. What proof should I ask for?

He doesn't have phone bills as it's a work phone. The only way I can check his email is via his blackberry.

Re your 2nd post - TBH I don't know. He's sorry he's hurt me and is showing me that but I feel like we have at least got to try the counselling first. Although I will be pursuing this issue over the next few days.

I'm sorry you're going through this. As I posted earlier, I have a friend going through something very similar so I can see for myself how painful this is and also how complicated this type of situation is. It's so easy to tell someone "well, just kick him out", but far from easy if you're the person actually having to do the kicking.

Her H sounds quite a lot like yours - he may or may not have crossed the line into a physical affair, but it's mostly been about a friendship that's gone too far. Her H won't admit anything has happened but from his actions/reactions it's obvious that he has strong feelings for the OW. He also appears to regret having hurt my friend but not to be truly remorseful about allowing it to happen and hasn't broken off contact with the OW. Their DCs are small, he's crazy about the kids and I'm positive that he wouldn't leave of his own volition. He has told my friend that he loves her when she confronted him about the email she saw that he sent to the OW. She said that it was a response along the lines of "of course I love you and the kids". So almost as if he loves her because she's part of the family package, i.e. the-wife-and-kids-I'm-doing-my-duty thing.

Is that how you think he feels about you? Is that enough? My friend is hanging in because she can't face the thought of being on her own, and seems to think that it will all just blow over in time. She really doesn't want to know all the details because that would force her to confront as truth what she now only suspects. I'm supporting her choice because ultimately it's her life and marriage. I have obviously asked her to consider all of the things that other posters have raised. Perhaps it is just a temporary fascination that her H has for the OW, but the "friendship" has been going on for 2 years, even although he and the OW no longer work together.

Maybe you could let it go for a while - see how the counselling goes and make a decision based on that. One thing that absolutely has to happen, I believe, is that either your DH or the OW will have to find another job, or at the very least get a transfer to another department in order for there to be even the remotest chance of them breaking it off. Seeing each other on a daily basis is going to be way too much of a temptation, even if he was determined to end it, and it doesn't seem like he really is. You won't be able to rest either, knowing that they're constantly together for many hours a day. I think someone else mentioned this - but do you think you can live with the doubts and suspicions? My friend is finding this a daily struggle and just doesn't trust her H anymore. But she can't police his every waking moment.

Hello again RBJ72,

This might be a bit stream of consciousness again but I wanted to reply whilst able to.

I mentioned getting the right counsellor.
It is only my opinion but, as I think WWIFN seconded, you will need one who is challenging to break through to your H an understanding of how emotional bonds such as that he has with OW cannot remain. I think you get one go at this because your H seems to anticipate it might not work before it starts and if you have a counsellor who isn't willing to challenge (which is important as I only hear reticence and self justification from what you say of your H's responses) then it could be a huge setback. Again - sorry to refer again to Shirley Glass (and I don't swallow what I read wholesale - my MA was critical analysis!) - she makes mention of this need.
I suggest you see them/email them to see what approach they take towards mending a relationship post infidelity. Anyway - that is why I suggested it.

I am second guessing how you feel atm by attributing what I recall of my own feelings and forgive me if that feels wrong. Unlike some I don't want to make any judgement about your H as a person - it's about bad choices someone you love has made and is still making to some degree.

Anyway...I felt really out of my depth in as far as this was the most intensely personal and challengingly negative emotional thing (that I felt I could influence) that I had had to face and yet here were people in RL, books and MNers saying it was a millenia old story, that it could be categorised, that WE could be categorised and there were a limited number of responses and outcomes. I chafed at the thought that me, him, US, weren't unique.

I have also concluded, by all that I have read, especially on Mumsnet, that the ones who have SUCCEEDED in mending and not just having a white elephant in the room or a ticking time bomb - are those that insisted on the break down of the emotional bonds (which are more dangerous marriage breakers than just Wayne Rooney-esque stuff) between their partner and the OW/OM by severing contact.

It must feel scary and alarming - doubly so given how tired you probably are with a toddler and a pregnancy - and I am saying do as I say not do as I did - but I rarely post on here and only do so if what I say I believe in and can make a real difference and isn't just knee-jerk round-the-water-cooler sounding off if that makes sense.

The difference I see currently is that you discovered, and had enough to challenge, your H. The rest: projecting all the problems, setting up the conditions, compartmentalising work and home, you being at one of the most tricky points with demands of young children (something ALL dads experience), and especially only being sorry for the hurt not the actual deed sound alarmingly close to my own experience.

I think that when affairs are exposed a lot lose the oxygen of secrecy and, bubble burst, in floods the actual view the world has of them not the previously hermetically sealed Walter Mitty superhero one given to them by the OW/OM. Given, like my exP, your H doesn't seem to have experienced that jolt of 1,2,3 back in the room, then it is likely your work could be harder than some.

Hope your postman comes soon.

I hope this reads positively to you in the main, or gives some idea of what to think/how to approach your situation, as that is its only intention.

There are others already on your thread who have come out the other side with marriages intact I believe who are prob better placed to say more. I just understand the reasons why my stuff didn't work I guess.

Will follow your thread and support where I can.