Just how bad an effect does arguing parents have on children?

[undercovamutha]

DH and I have always had quite a 'feisty' relationship. I think most of our friends would think of us being happy together, but with definitely plenty of niggling at each other. I think it is a mixture of DH's incredible stubborness and my obsession with fairness that causes the problems. We tend to get on well most of the time, but have little periods of a week or so, a couple of times a year, when we argue lots.

Anyway, our DCs are 1 and nearly 4 (DD), and I am worried about the effect our niggling/arguments might be having on them - particularly on DD. There's nothing to make me think she is effected, other than the fact that DH does tend to get quite shouty which I don't think can be nice for DD to hear. If I try to 'shush' him, it just makes him more cross. I must admit that I do (almost subconsciously) rile him and probably start a good few arguments myself. However, I always keep my responses measured, and quiet, and in another room if possible.

Basically, I was wondering just how bad an effect this would have on the DCs. My parents NEVER argued when I was a child (that I know of) but DH's were apparently always 'getting at each other' although were married for 40+ years. I WANT to stop arguing all together, but its just not as simple as that. Any views?

Undercovamutha, I personally don't think that your children will be harmed by the amount of arguing you describe. But I do think that if you both work at it, you could probably manage things better to defuse a lot of the rows. Then you could be an even better 'relationship model' for your DC! Does your DH also think that there may be a problem with the way/amount you argue? Would he be willing to try and change his behaviour?

There's lots of better advice on MN / online / in books than I can give, but just for starters, certain lines of attack, such as "You never..." are pretty much guaranteed to wind the other person up.

From what you say, I don't know whether you generally feel that there isn't a 'fair' distribution of domestic chores, or whether it's just the odd thing that winds you up? If you ask DH to do something, could you give it a timescale like 'this evening' or 'this weekend'? Then if he says he will, it's clear to both of you whether he's done what he said he would, or not. Otherwise, you leave what you think is a reasonable time before asking again, but to him, that's nagging. If you want him to do more round the house without nagging him, could you hand over to him as many jobs as possible with a clear timetable, then he knows where he stands, e.g. cooking dinner, DC's bedtime, putting the bins out once a week, changing bedsheets. Then you do the things that need 'noticing' without feeling that you're doing an unfair amount.

I think it depends on what happens to the parents marriage.

My parents would have big rows, and I remember just leaving them to it. I don't remember being particularly upset by it because it was always about something specific, so the row would mostly go away once the issue had been resolved.

DH's parents would row, and bicker, and eventually got divorced because it was about infidelity and trust and much bigger issues.

Now when DH and I argue he finds it very upsetting and it's hard for him to keep the argument to the issue in hand. He would much rather we didn't argue, but then when we do he tends to be the one who gets most upset and shouty. I've explained to him that I can't live with him for 60 years and NEVER disagree with him, so he's going to have to learn that if I snap at him because he's left his pants on the floor, it's because of the pants, not because I don't love him !

It is hard though, and we're both really aware that we need to get less shouty if we have kids.

30andmerkin i sympathise, dh seems to want this perfect harmonious conflict free relationship whist still being able to behave unreasonable without reproach. he's got this obsession with never disagreeing in front of dcs which results in me almost at bursting point as i feel i can't address things.

If i get sick to the back teeth with the crap he leaves everywhere I've got a right to say so, it's not a personal attack on him, or a character assassination.

This is a hard one, as I know me and DP can scream at each other sometimes, and bicker alot too

But my DP is a mediterreanean person, and they are all SHOUTY

I remember years ago I was in the bath and I heard my Italian ex and Spanish flatmate arguing. In fact, they were not arguing, they were having a chat about their day!

So I feel that some ranting and shouting, is NOT the end of the world really. Its human life.

I think most of us know when normal shouty rants turn nasty, and thats when we need to adress it

but agree with Ruby that some agruments are inevitable.

also, my DS is used to the shoutyness. DP will shout at him, and he takes it in his stride, as he seen it from birth! He will cry, then 2 seconds later goes for a kiss and its all over. Me with my brit conditioning, well it affects me more

My parents used to argue reasonably regularly and my father has a very quick temper and is annoyingly impatient, although never physical.
I have no recollection of feeling insecure or as if they would separate, but perhaps that's because the concept of separate parents was almost unheard of when I was a child.
I don't have a problem with arguments and see them as natural and understandable most of the time. I feel it is essential to 'let off steam' sometimes, in a safe environment.
My feelings are that avoiding all conflict in front of children isn't particularly healthy, it isn't comfortable sometimes, but they will encounter conflict with friends and in relationships and my choice is for them to be exposed to it in 'safe' environment.
Ideally they should have the opportunity to discuss their thoughts and feelings about conflict if they want. But it is essential to allow them to see that life goes on afterwards. They need to understand that it is possible and fairly unavoidable to have conflict within a normal relationship.

I also remember having quite a few (teenage) arguments with my parents, and feeling quite safe in those arguments. I always felt loved and secure regardless of arguments.

I have friends who do the 'fairness' and bickering thing - 'You were out two evenings this week so I'm entitled to Sunday out', 'Your friends didn't do their washing up when they visited, so you do it for a week' -petty little bickering. As an adult, I hate it, and it makes me really uncomfortable, and I think it sets a really bad example to their DD as it's like theres no give and take in their relationship at all.

They'd say they only row a few times a year, but actually it's normally a low level niggling that is constant

Thanks for your replies everyone. Sorry I've not managed to post until now.

All the posts taken together provide a really balanced view overall, but it is clear that the arguing does need to be addressed, which of course I know. Its really informing to get such a range of views.

Particularly to ChocolateMoose - thanks for your constructive comments. I think DH is less worried than I am about the situation, so we need to have a real chat about WHY it is important for the kids not to be subjected to our rows (may well use some of this thread as examples!).

I think the root of the problem is the conflict between MY obsession with an equal 'workload' and my DH feeling that he never gets time to himself. I know I need to stop nagging, but don't think I could ever become a doormat. I guess its about finding a middle ground, and phrasing things better for a start! I have a short temper, as does DH. I long to be chilled out!!!

porcamiseria, I like what you said about Mediterranean people. I've lived chunks of my life in the South of France and in Brazil - I love the highly-verbal, impassioned style of communication (and am grateful to the Brazilian woman who taught me how to do Flaming Rage when faced by stubborn bureaucracy!) What I love about this is the way emotions are expressed & language used vividly.

As you point out, it often sounds like arguing to Brits - and I suspect that's because fewer Brits have the knack for self-expression. Perhaps a lot of the "You never ..." and "You're such a ..." stuff is born of frustration; simply lacking the habit of saying things honestly. For the record, a Brazilian who says that kind of thing is being unreasonable too!

mutha, it's nice to hear back from you A couple of good books have been recommended here. The main point, I think, is: Words DO matter. It's normal & natural to feel angry - and to show it. It is far, far easier than most people think to hold for a split second, while you review what you really want to say.

Makes you feel happier when you've got it out straight, too Good luck!

I was so glad when I switched on my computer to see this thread this morning. I have been feeling so upset and guilty over fighting in front of dd (2.2) Dp and I have had a couple of big rows recently in front of dd, and they've ended in floods of tears from me, particularly because I'm 35 weeks pregnant and couldn't find a way to control myself. Dd didn't seem upset by all the shouting and crying, and just carried on playing, but I don't know how she was feeling inside. She did say "Mami kying, papa kying"

Oh dear, writing this is setting me off again. I just feel so guilty about it. She's also been more clingy with me lately and saying "papa no" when I tell her to read a book with papa or when he gets her out of her cot in the mornings. I'm not sure if this is just normal clingliness, especially since she's about to get a little sister, or if it's because of the recent tension. Plus I had my 30 week scan yesterday and the sonographer said the baby is weighing 2 kilos, and although he didn't say anything about it, that seems small to me, and is smaller than dd was, and now I've got it into my head that this has been caused by stress and the upset and me doing too much.

We're just so stressed about money atm as we are just scraping by with dp's business, some days we both feel so tense and tired and negative, and it's sooo hot where we live and you can't get out anywhere for most of the day if you can't afford the petrol last Sunday was like steaming together in a cauldron! That was how the fight started, I just wanted to go to the beach for the day, just once before the baby's born. We're an hour and a half away by car. I asked dp about going and he got annoyed instead of talking about it constructively, so then I got annoyed and the whole thing blew up.

I wish we could just pop dd off to her granny's for a couple of hours so we could talk and let off steam, but we live abroad so we can't. It has made us v close though, we have no one else, so it's our little family against the world. I do have good friends thankfully, but I don't want to confide in them about things like this.

I googled some useful stuff, like this and made notes and read it over to remind me not to escalate arguments and start shouting. Dp has gotten loads better over the last couple of years, and continues to control himself better each time. We are from different cultures and what he finds to be normal "passionate" arguing in his culture, for me is very insulting and upsetting, such as name calling and insults. I'm not blameless because I get shouty and huffy, but I've told him time and time again, the insults need to stop. He has got LOADS better, but the odd one still pops out and I remember the things he has called me in the past and I feel resentful. Tbh he has acted occasionally in the past in a way which I have learnt from mn is abusive, threats and intimidation. Not serious, but definitely there. I told him it was abuse and why, I told him I'd call the police, and that I would definitely leave if he didn't stop it, he was shocked, and has stopped it. There's a big difference in the way he handles arguments, thank god.

But it has obv taken his toll, and we're both so different in personality that it causes big problems in certain areas of our lives. I don't know if we'll last tbh, though we do love each other.

I'm going to talk to him again to make a pact just like minxofmancunia, to reiterate that it's not that we should never argue, it's that there shouldn't be insults and name calling from him, or shouting and drama from me. He thinks that it won't have done dd any harm, but I think that's just wishful thinking on his part, so I'm going to show him some of the info I've found on the net about how children are affected. Problem is, how to do this without him feeling that I'm "getting at him" and him getting all defensive and starting to call me negative, hysterical, etc... He just wants to sweep these things under the carpet and pretend they didn't happen after it's all over.

Anyway, apologies for this novel I've written, but it has helped so much to get this off my chest!

there is a big difference between being loud / mediterranean (go into a restaurant in Spain for example, the volume of noise is just louder) and being abusive/name calling. they are not the same thing.

there is a difference between disagreeing over something "well i think..." and saying "i am right you are wrong, you are a xxxxx" .

there is a diffence between negotiating calmly over issues and being agressive/shouting/punching things/name calling etc to get your point across.

so it isnt arguing/disagreeing per se - but how it is done and if - for the children - it turns into aggressive scary "fighting"...

i hated going to my ex's fammily - not for the volume of noise (mediterranean) but for the abusive name calling "you are such a stupid idiot why have you done xxxxx" e.g ending up with his mother cowering in the corner but trying to please him... him screaming at her for buying him the "wrong" present....why was i surprised he did same to me?

my parents used to argue verbally and physically infront of me and my younger brother i still remember it years on and it had affected the way i view realtionships. the best day of my life was when my mum finally divorced him. i dont want to ever hear my DD say that about her mummy and daddy so as soon as i fell pregnant we made a pact never to argue when shes even in the house let alone in another room cuz thats equally as bad if not worse. so far so good (DD is 2.3). its shocking how much they pick up on at such a young age. i had a death in the family when she was 1 and she cried when i cried so now i wouldnt get upset in front of her too much either. i grew up being my mums rock, being her shoulder to cry on and it should be the other way round. its so hard. if only there was a manual

undercovamutha: what you wrote is very true for me as well.

"I think the root of the problem is the conflict between MY obsession with an equal 'workload' and my DH feeling that he never gets time to himself. I know I need to stop nagging, but don't think I could ever become a doormat. I guess its about finding a middle ground, and phrasing things better for a start! I have a short temper, as does DH. I long to be chilled out!!!"

We have exactly the same issues.

"Whatever we argue about we always try to resolve our arguments amicably. I am pretty sure our kids assess us as a loving couple who sometimes disagree. My kids are not frightened of our disagreements, they realise that sometimes adults differ and that's just the way it is."

See, that's a healthy relationship. I never said people shouldn't argue its how they argue and how they resolve these arguments that matter.

The rows described in the OP don't sound like this.

minxofmancunia when I say I don't nag I could have gone on to say that the end result of this is our house is a bit messier than I would like but I prefer that to either doing all the housework myself or nagging him to do more. Having said that, my DP does at half the childcare and most of the pooey nappy changing!!

Agree completely cestlavie. That's what I told dp when he said that for example his friend and his wife call each other names when they fight but that they don't mean it, view it as normal, and it shouldn't be taken too seriously, it's just a heat of the moment thing. I have explained to him why insults are so bad, slapping a negative label on someone you supposedly love, just to hurt them. Not acceptable, whatever country you're from. He's never called me stupid, and I've never cowered, don't get me wrong.

Those occasional threats and intimidation were a long time ago now, but I lost a lot of respect for him, and liked him a lot less. I told him that it was abusive and why, he was shocked when he realised, apologised and stopped. I'm not making excuses for him, I will leave him if he ever goes back to that. So sad it happened though, it?s cast a shadow over our relationship, as I don?t think I?ll ever forget or forgive.

The name calling hardly happens now either, even though our fight on Sunday was horrible, he didn't hurl any insults. I'm the shouty ranty one, and I cried an awful lot this time. We have a big fight once every few months or less, but when we do fight it's horrible. I need to stop reacting like this to him for the sake of dd, no matter how pissed off I am in the heat of the moment. I need to go to another room for a while and chill out, for the sake of my dd. I need to count to ten before I react too.

Dp has insomnia, a back back and gets depressed, so none of that helps. I can?t help thinking if he was getting a good night?s sleep he?d be a lot happier. Anyway, I hope we can sort ourselves out, I?m hopeful (sometimes!) that we can, and if not we?ll have to separate for everybody?s sake, especially the dc.

Oh undacovamutha

"I think the root of the problem is the conflict between MY obsession with an equal 'workload' and my DH feeling that he never gets time to himself. I know I need to stop nagging, but don't think I could ever become a doormat. I guess its about finding a middle ground, and phrasing things better for a start! I have a short temper, as does DH. I long to be chilled out!!!"

You and your dp could be us!!! The thing is i think a lot of relationships have one fiery one and one laid back one, not us tho! We're both fiery! This means fireworks unfortunately! I have friends who nag nag nag their dhs and just get a muttered "ok whatever" in response but with dh ANY expression of disatisfaction about housework results in at best a tirade, at worst a full scale row. And he is so bloody messy! I have other friends who say nothing as "it won't make any difference he won't do it anyway" and are doormats imo. At least after our blow outs there's a temporary improvement in his slovenly ways. I just cannot accept that i should be a drudge around the house. A cleaner has alleviated some of the stress but there's still lots to do obviously.

Sigh.

this was linked to on another thread -
www.theartofloveandintimacy.com/2007/03/four-horseman-of-apocalypse-john.html

Criticism. Criticism involves attacking your partner?s personality or character, rather than focusing on the specific behavior that bothers you. It is healthy to air disagreements, but not to attack your spouse?s personality or character in the process. This is the difference between saying, ?I?m upset that you didn?t take out the trash? and saying, ?I can?t believe you didn?t take out the trash. You?re just so irresponsible.? In general, women are more likely to pull this horseman into conflict.

Top link, C'est Thanks!

I think thta arguing is better than not arguing but keeping the resnetment inside.

Top link, C'est Thanks!

undercover, why don't you and DH sit down and work out a 'timetable' that incorporates both of your needs? work out who does what at home and make sure you both get time off as well? If this is the main issue your rows are about, it seems an easy one to sort out.