Archers thread #175: Crime, punishment and kittens. Discuss The Archers here.

[Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g]

Thank you, @PseudoBadger, for kicking off this long, long series of Archers threads.

All views on The Archers welcome here! New blood welcomed, and of course we are always delighted to welcome back former or occasional listeners/posters. We don't all agree on all points, although we do mostly try to be civil about it. Most of us are posting tongue in cheek a lot of the time, so don't worry about revealing that your current highlight is the kitten naming, or other unusual views.

Spoilers: not on this thread, please! We don't wait for the omnibus to discuss the weeknight episodes, but we do try our best to avoid cross-contamination from https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/radio_addicts/4636789-the-archers-spoilers-thread-7-cant-wait-for-702pm-join-us-here, where spoilers are positively welcomed!

For newer listeners, lurkers or those who just have no idea what we're talking about, @DadDadDad has created this useful thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/radio_addicts/3557323-For-Archers-fans-a-guide-to-acronyms-on-the-long-running-discussion-threads-and-any-other-meta-thread-questions-you-may-have - BOOP point for him! (See thread for explanation.)

As I am posting this on Sunday morning at a point where some omnibus listeners won't have caught up with this week's events, I've kept the title less spoilerish than I might have done. Below this point, everything broadcast to date is of course fair game, so be warned!

Of course the main interest for most us at the moment is indeed the kitten naming competition. Isn't it? No?

Oh well, since you insist ...

How do we think George is going to cope now? Whither the Grundy and Horrobin clan? Will Lilian choke on her G&T (please)? Will Kenton get septicaemia from a kitten scratch? Will Alice die of sanctimoniousness? Will Fallon spend the rest of her life with the appalling Harrison and his unfulfulled longing for a behbeh? Will Adam and Will come to blows in the Bridge Farm packing shed?

Over to you!

Adore Granny Weatherwax, but also Sam Vimes and Mustrum Ridcully. I aspire to be the sort of senior academic that Mustrum Ridcully represents. Was appropriately up-hauled at the representation of Sibyl Ramkin in the TV version of Nightwatch, which Pratchett's daughter rightfully disavowed.

As for the Archers, I find it interesting (especially in the last few days) to observe the very divided reactions to Alice, in particular. I confess to quite liking her as a character, though as a person, I would find her self-flagellation somewhat tiresome after a while. But it seems to me that some people hold her to rather a higher standard, apparently for class reasons, than e.g. George. As far as I can tell, Alice has done some awful things, especially when under the influence of alcohol, but has tried to take responsibility for these actions, even if in a somewhat counterproductive or tone-deaf way at times. George has instead done his best to avoid taking responsibility for anything, and has instead made himself odious through his misogynistic attitude in general, and his attempts to frame even his supposed best friend in particular. Is it so very middle-class of me to find the latter especially loathsome, no matter the socioeconomic predicates that led to the situation? Could it not be argued that it's really patronising to think that it's his situation that means that no better could be expected of him? Wee scrote.

I'm finding Emma's self-pitying stance rather tiresome listening though.

Likewise, though what is more annoying is the knee-jerk way she seeks to put the blame on other people to make them feel bad. She can't just say she wishes she hadn't turned George in, she has to tell Susan that she wishes she hadn't given in to pressure from her and Neil to do that, making it clear she's saying the whole thing is Susan's fault.

If she hadn't dobbed him in, there's a pretty good chance he would have given himself away anyway. The cops must have wondered why he told that pack of lies about Harry and may have started putting two and two together re the cider bottle and the fact that there was no real reason for him to be in the vicinity of the crash if he wasn't involved. Alice may have recovered her memory, or he may well have tied himself in knots in the witness box and given himself away.

If any of those scenarios had happened, George would have ended up with a longer sentence, and Emma would probably now be going around blaming her mother for failing to advise her to turn him in earlier.

I'd like Lord Vetinari to be running the country. TP was so good with names. I was delighted when the penny dropped that Vetinari is a play on Medici.

Back to TA. Still worried about Neil.

I’m very worried about Neil. Helen was surprisingly sensitive, I liked the way she introduced the subject of counselling.

Helen, Pat and Elizabeth have been surprisingly kind , reasonable and measured in their responses.

Helen tried very hard, but I don’t think Neil will act on the advice.

It’s awful to wonder how George will be impacted by prison. I expect he is going to be caught up in violence and Adam, Lilian etc will then be sad etc

Helen was only on remand

I don’t think Adam and Lilian will be sad at all. They’ll be in the Daily Mail ‘if you can’t do the time, don’t do the crime’ gang.

I can see that Helen might be a fan of counselling: she got to talk about herself, after all, which is pretty much her favourite thing. What I can’t see is any earthly reason why Neil would want or need it.

I found Helen’s chat with Neil a bit surprising. I don’t remember them having much history and suddenly they were bezzies with Helen bringing him a sandwich and stickybeaking. If it were Pat, that would have been a bit different but when she asked him about the things he can’t tell Susan, I felt she had overstepped. If I didn’t know her better, I would have found it almost flirtatious.

I don't feel at all sorry for Kirsty. If she has a mortgage on beechwood, she can port it to a new place, regardless of whether she buys Roy's or not. If she doesn't she can sell if and use equity for her deposit. If she does have a mortgage, that means she will now be looking for a second mortgage which will mean one of them would have to be buy to let and she'd pay the additional stamp duty on a second home.

Either use the asset you've got or stop whining, Kirsty Two Homes!

I must say Kristy’s whining yesterday was extremely odd!

I don't get this. She was perfectly compassionate with Will and Ed, and more importantly she was able to give very practical and helpful advice. Being compassionate doesn't mean she has to say she condones George's crime.

How big is Beechwood? I assumed 4-bed, what with Helen & Lee's room, separate rooms for the two boys, plus Lee's toy room. Kirsty surely doesn't need to rattle around in anything that size, so she could trade down a bedroom or two.

Oh! I’ve only just clocked this 😆 thanks Gasp

My Dad brought me up on TP and I won a writing competition in Year 4 that TP was judging and he wrote me the loveliest letter. Haven’t read any of the DW for years - I’m struggling to get back into the Archers lately so perhaps this is a sign I should get some DW downloaded instead…!

All of this is true, but I can still understand Emma's position. She's in that unavoidable situation where you are only ever as happy as your unhappiest child - where you'd rather take on whatever it is they are going through and go through it yourself than watch their suffering. I think it's human nature to go over and over things thinking if only I hadn't done this or that (or listened to this person or that person). Neil must be going through something similar - I'm remembering the talking to he gave George when there was all that business at Berrow. He could see the writing on the wall for George at that point and must now be asking himself whether he could have said or done more. The fact is that George is an adult and is responsible for his own actions - he's shown himself to not be a very nice person on countless occasions. His nasty, mean streak is no different to Alice's alcoholism in its own way - flashes of loveliness, but then he goes back to his old ways. Easy to see when you are a few steps removed, much harder (if not impossible) for a mother or grandfather (who is going through the same with both his child and grandchild). Very well written and entirely believable in my opinion.

I found Helen’s chat with Neil a bit surprising.

I found it peak Helen. Clarrie tells Pat she's worried about Neil's health. Pat tells Helen (despite Clarrie telling her to keep it quiet). Helen decides that the solution is a cup of tea and instructions that financial sacrifices must be made to fund counselling, utterly oblivious to the differences in their circumstances. This was typified earlier in the episode where Helen was able to breezily assure Kirsty that she'd just get somewhere else to live.

I didn't think Helen was being inappropriately chummy or flirty. I did think she was shockingly unaware of her own privilege.

I didn't think Helen was being inappropriately chummy or flirty. I did think she was shockingly unaware of her own privilege. I agree. Indeed when she first pitched up in the polytunnel with the tea I was picturing Lady Mary from Downton Abbey because that was exactly who she sounded like.

To me a conversation between Helen and Neil seems perfectly natural. She would have known him all her life, he’s Susan’s husband and the ex-father in law of her cousin. They’re faaaaaaamly.

What I do find strange is how rarely (if ever?) we hear a conversation between Helen and Alice. They really do seem to exist on separate planets.

I think any conversation between Alice and Helen would involve a fair bit of "But enough about me! Tell me, what do YOU think about me?"

Helen and Alice have both had a lot of plot weight piled on to them -- while the writers do like entangling key people in interesting ways from time to time (like Alice and George), I think where they're cast in a similar role of "tragic woman", with similar family backgrounds (they're second cousins I think), I can see why they don't have many scenes together.

Tony and Jenny were siblings. Their respective daughters must surely be first cousins? What makes you say otherwise?

(I’m not at my best this morning, so very puzzled.)

A friend used to work in HR, and some years ago they had to start getting disclosure from all their staff of any criminal record. It’s commonplace now, but it hadn’t been a thing up till then.

She said she was absolutely flabbergasted at the number and of variety of criminal convictions that were disclosed, some of them from people in senior roles and including having served time in prison. It’s a lot more common than you’d think.

Just caught up. As pp have said, I can't see the justification for 'impact statements' as part of actual court proceedings as opposed to the traditional post-trial / sentencing press conference. They were presumably introduced to satisfy a demand to 'hear the victims' but they are by their nature subjective and randomly available so can't form any part of evidence or weighing sentencing.

Fallon's was a good example of their arbitrariness: Harrison's unevidenced belief the crash caused the loss of his behbeh shouldn't impact on the judging of George at all. Well done by SWs.

I'm very fond of Neil (and Susan) and hoping there's not going to be a sad health drama for him. I thought Helen's chat was in keeping with how she'd try and help - I can't decide whether I want to be spared Neil seeing a counsellor or whether it could be comedy gold.

I didn't know BH was that age. If he wants to retire I'd sooner they re-voiced Neil than killed him. He's the moral touchstone of the village.