Archers thread #170: The scriptwriters have cast a Paul on proceedings! Discuss The Archers here.

[Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g]

Thank you, @PseudoBadger, for kicking off this long, long series of Archers threads.

All views on The Archers welcome here! New blood welcomed, and of course we are always delighted to welcome back former or occasional listeners/posters. We don't all agree on all points, although we do mostly try to be civil about it. Most of us are posting tongue in cheek a lot of the time, so don't worry about revealing that you'd like to hear more of Drunk Alistair, or other unusual views.

Spoilers: not on this thread, please! We don't wait for the omnibus to discuss the weeknight episodes, but we do try our best to avoid cross-contamination from https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/radioaddicts/4636789-the-archers-spoilers-thread-7-cant-wait-for-702pm-join-us-here, where spoilers are positively welcomed!

For newer listeners, lurkers or those who just have no idea what we're talking about, @DadDadDad has created this useful thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/radioaddicts/3557323-For-Archers-fans-a-guide-to-acronyms-on-the-long-running-discussion-threads-and-any-other-meta-thread-questions-you-may-have - BOOP point for him! (See thread for explanation.)

Thanks to @OverArmour for the title. I was tempted to try some sort of complex riff on chocolate names, given @PedantScorner's lightbulb moment - Paul's sister is Cara Mack! - and all the nonsense in last night's episode about coffee creams, but I couldn't be bothered, beyond thinking we must all be Cadbury's Fruit and Nutcases for listening at the moment. Let's hope the SWs take a walk along Quality Street or we'll have to put a Bounty on their heads!

And over to you ...

It’s true that in familial situations there has to be an element of moving on - but given how quite staggeringly unpleasant Kate was to Emma back then, there’s no way Emma would actually have forgiven her.

So last night suggests to me that it’s only Kate’s overwhelming self-regard that prevented her from immediate suspicion regarding Emma’s sudden olive-branching. I honestly dread to think how House Aldridge will react if the truth eventually comes out.

It's possible that some people here use the Kieron spelling but I've never seen it. In 1911 the Census returns show 650 Kierans and 0 Kierons. Only 12 Ciaráns, but that might be partly the transcribers' problems with the old script, stuff returned as Gaeilge is still not all up.

Oh joy, my computer was in for innards dusting earlier in the week and the very very nice chap there sorted out minor keyboard issue at the same time and now I can do fadas and euros.

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Kate's current attitude to Emma does make me doubt the accuracy of her aura readings. Until now I was in awe of her superpower.

there’s no way Emma would actually have forgiven her.

Given Emma's ability to hold a grudge, she wouldn't even have had to have been spectacularly unpleasant.

In India and Pakistan it's a unisex name and usually spelled Kiran. I know a Canadian Kiran - her dad's a Sikh.

I used hypnotherapy to help me find something valuable I'd lost and it worked very well. I've also used it to have unpleasant medical procedures done without anaesthetic--during lockdown when nobody could drive me to the appointments and I wasn't allowed to drive myself home. I can see why it would help Alice remember, though perhaps having been intoxicated would interfere with her memory.

Kiran is an excellent name, as indeed is Karen, as is Keren-happuch. Which is why I wondered was Kieron an excellent, new-to-me, non-Irish name.

The usual spelling of the Anglicised version of Ciarán (the name of two 6th century saints) is Kieran (or indeed Kierán).

Alice is in the driving seat, holding the reins, when George arrives. Instead of just sitting beside her, he pushes her aside and takes the reins, having already placed on the floor the cider bottle he was carrying.

Of course, if the unwitting reconstruction is too like the original, George’s legal team will be able to argue that Alice just “thinks she remembers” it. But they won’t dare to put him on the witness stand - he’s far too brittle.

Would be nice if that incident with Brad could come back to bite him, when he and Brad were apprehended for something, George told him to say nothing, then sang like a canary and put the blame on Brad.

Is it results day for Brad and Mia tomorrow? (and all the real youngsters)

I think the police will need to take Alice seriously, hopefully the days they could dismiss an “hysterical” woman are long past.

They should not be surprised given the fact that she has already (with an inner certainty) pleaded not guilty, in the face of overwhelming evidence. Whatever their own inner dialogue, if she comes forward with a strong story, they should be required to investigate it. It would be to their own detriment when the case comes up if they ignore her, plus no doubt her family and own defence team can then start bringing the threads together regarding George and any related evidence.

Evidence of piecing together memories over time is well documented. Straight after the initial police interviews Alice was already recalling George taking to her in the lay-by (Kate just shut her up telling her it was after the accident). She also referred to “we” driving to the bridge on the night of the accident (when Adam took her that way on the way to rehab).

The certainty she did not do it, despite the overwhelming evidence, and the change in her after she pleaded not guilty “like the old Alice” shows the strength of this internal understanding, confounded by the “evidence. Must be absolute mental torture for her, such a cruel thing to subject her to, questioning her own sanity, aside from all the other severe consequences.

Not sure about the success of hypnotherapy, but I said way back her family need to give her the opportunity to explore her memories and absolute belief she did not do it, if only to allow her to peacefully come to terms (through her own realisation) with the fact that she did. So if hypnotherapy gives her the space to do that (without being “corrected”) and given she obviously has some enduring (if confused by the “evidence”) memories then it is quite realistic IMHO that the truth would out.

Personally I would be doing a reconstruction from the shop, woods and to the bridge as familiar circumstances often bring memories to the surface, as we have already seen when crossing the bridge of doom with Adam. As I mentioned before, like Proust and the smell of madeleines, taking him right back as if he was there.

It should be, yes.

I taught a Pakistani girl called Kiran. Spelling anglicised from another language can be variable anyway.

I have also taught Kieran and Kieron and know a Karen (in her 70s) that pronounces it Kair-an.

@VoxPop - thanks for that thoughtful reply. Just for avoidance of doubt, I wasn't particularly thinking in terms of Alice being labelled an "hysterical woman" who would be dismissed by misogynistic officers.

You are right that in a fair, objective justice system, memories emerging at a later date however prompted should be listened to by the police and any new avenues for investigation pursued. In reality, I can imagine a police officer thinking that it's just a desperate attempt by a guilty person ("really? you think a jury will believe that in the midst of rescuing people from the river, George went back and pulled you over from the passenger seat?"). If the existing case is strong enough to get a conviction in court, maybe they would judge (wrongly) that it's wasting resources to investigate further?

In the end, of course, the behaviour of the police will be determined by the needs of the story arc...

I will be REALLY cross if Brad's A level results aren't given airtime tomorrow because of this current nonsense...

I don't think it is nonsense. It's a juicy, unlikely SL, but we were gripped at the time, and filled a thread in a very short time.

I love Alice, and like the way she's acted. George and Emma are well-acted.
I like Lynda and Joy together.

Looking forward to hearing that both Brad and Mia have done well and are off to university in Birmingham Felpersham.

I don't care about Denistare or Paul, Justin, Lilian or Carlotta.

I want Alistair and Denise to sort things out and be happy. If that makes Paul unhappy, it's a bonus.

I couldn't care less about village idiot Brad and his yokel voice or whiny, smug Mia. I hope they get university places very, very, very far away and are never heard of again.

For the moment Emma, George, Will and Alice are fantastically well acted.

I hope Kieron is going to be a ship that has passed in the night, as he came over distinctly creepy and nasty. But I fear that, as they've cast him and given him a name, we're going to be subjected to some awful gay abuse or rape SL.

Why wouldn’t Lily just tell Paul that the guy was going to rape him if she and Ben hadn’t kicked him out? Would paul really risk seeing him again? And how stupid to invite a complete rando back to your remote house.

however I don’t agree with people saying he should just accept his mother has a messy sex life. Parents are different and when your parents separate it is hard at by age - plus the thought that your mother cheated and is therefore not the person you thought she was is also hard. Problem is they have written this a if Paul were 14 which makes it very odd.

The BBC in the cast list spelt it Kieron. I checked there because of the debate, and there it was.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0021xvt and click on "Show more."

Doesn't Lilian own the riding stables? If so why doesn't she tell Justin to take s running jump.

I thought it was Lilian and Justin with Shula having the majority share, but I might be totally misremembering.

Shula owns the riding stables, and Lilian and Justin put in some money to build an eventing course.

Thanks.

I think your reality of what you say a police officer may think, equates to my “whatever their inner dialogue”. They may think that, but what is their duty, or at least the minimum they need to do to ensure they are not seen as ignoring her statement, when it could come back to spectacularly bite them on the bum, if her team uncover anything that even suggests it could be true. The case they have will only be as strong as it and their actions can stand up to the defence case

There are all sorts of questions about George and potential evidence once anyone (beyond Chris and Alice) start to seriously consider that things were not as they clearly seemed. It doesn’t matter if she goes to the police (although she should to amend her statement) or if they believe her or not (although it would be very questionable if they did not at least look at any easily available evidence just to disprove her claims).

I would like to believe the police were a bit more nuanced than to fail to wonder why someone with any intelligence would make such a story up, which if untrue would only makes matters worse for them (Alice is no George and that should be fairly apparent to them).

However the evidence of the hypnotherapist (along with any recording) would strengthen the validity of the true recollections (if they come out), especially strong if they get a well regarded professional. It is possible that Alice herself may not even be aware of what she says under hypnosis.

As you say down to the scriptwriters, and there are many paths still available for them to tread. But hopefully the chosen one will retain a whiff of reality and maybe even justice.

At best, evidence obtained under hypnosis is regarded as dubious, and "should always be treated with great caution."

www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/hypnosis