Archers thread #168: Near to the Maddening Crowd? Discuss The Archers here.

[Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g]

Thank you, @PseudoBadger, for kicking off this long, long series of Archers threads.

All views on The Archers welcome here! New blood welcomed, and of course we are always delighted to welcome back former or occasional listeners/posters. We don't all agree on all points, although we do mostly try to be civil about it. Most of us are posting tongue in cheek a lot of the time, so don't worry about revealing that you'd like to hear more of Harrison's strange little moaning noises, or other unusual views.

Spoilers: not on this thread, please! We don't wait for the omnibus to discuss the weeknight episodes, but we do try our best to avoid cross-contamination from www.mumsnet.com/talk/radio_addicts/4636789-the-archers-spoilers-thread-7-cant-wait-for-702pm-join-us-here, where spoilers are positively welcomed!

For newer listeners, lurkers or those who just have no idea what we're talking about, @DadDadDad has created this useful thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/radio_addicts/3557323-For-Archers-fans-a-guide-to-acronyms-on-the-long-running-discussion-threads-and-any-other-meta-thread-questions-you-may-have - BOOP point for him! (See thread for explanation.)

Thanks to @OverArmour for the title suggestion!

Over to you.

As a juror you can only go on the evidence and as it stands there is nothing that suggests she wasn’t driving. There is past evidence she has driven drunk as well

she needs to remember something between George finding her and moving her back to the driving seat

@Bruisername - she needs to remember something between George finding her and moving her back to the driving seat

And she needs to convince a jury that she's telling the truth. This could be a problem.

I don’t think it will get that far - I think something will come back to her and she will ask George and he will crumble

it is clear the family understand they need to support her in this. Which is great (even if it wasn’t true) because they can guide her through her journey to self realisation, which will help her immensely.

@VoxPop, I’m not sure Alice being supported and encouraged to focus on and think about Alice is the good thing that is being suggested here.

(who was that bloke at work ... or have I imagined him?) which certainly involved alcohol and probably driving home. I occasionally idly wonder if Martha is Chris's daughter

You might be conflating Alice and Lily, @Gonners. Lily had a work ONS with Sol. There was a bloke at Price Baumann who was making Alice’s life difficult - can’t recall his name - but I think it was competition and undermining with harassment rather than anything mutual.

As an aside, Neil sounding disgusted that alcohol is still available for purchase despite the dipsomania of his former DiL was A Bit Thick, imo.
And how sweet that Chris and Neil imagined that Alice going to prison will result in abandonment issues whereas an extended London-based drinking binge won’t have done. Martha will already be quite comprehensively fucked up (and there’s still the damage done in utero to emerge).

@RegimentalSturgeon You might be conflating Alice and Lily, @Gonners.

Arf! Very likely as I find them equally without redeeming features. See also Helen. And, for the avoidance of sexism, almost all of the men.

No one is going to believe her as it stands, agree she needs evidence and needs to remember first.

Not sure any definitive past evidence she has driven drunk however long ago. Even less so anything that might come to court or stand up there. Have explained why on earlier claims. The latest 3 claims, one was on private ground and no breathalyser evidence, the second she did not actually drive and the 3rd from the synopsis at least it is not clear she drove into the village (she did threaten to drive to get alcohol if they did not sell it to her) and anyway even if she had, she was not breathalysed so no proof she was actually over the limit, although her behaviour would suggest so (or perhaps just the desperation of an alcoholic after her next fix).

Chris’s dad dead set against her but all linked to bridgegate and the way she was comprehensively set up by George, her family think she should have pleaded guilty but again not surprising given the circumstances and potential consequences of not doing so.

But Chris definitely has doubts about what went on, and has seen the change in her since she stood up for her beliefs - like the old Alice

and Adam can see how earnest she is in her claims …
“If you’d seen her in that moment
Something she seemed so certain about a really strong instinct”
”I think if it’s the only thing she has any certainty about we could make things worse by trying to take it away”

And Lillian really supportive

No I don’t think the past incidents are anything but circumstantial and hold no more weight than her saying she wouldn’t have done it

i think we are heading to a reconciliation with Chris after her redemption

I’m waiting for Alice to remember the manky fruit cider and say ‘I can afford litre bottles of vodka, why would I buy that grot?’ in earshot of Joy.

You can get tinned spagetti and hoops. You can get baked beans and sausages. You used to get tinned coleslaw and tinned Russian salad if I remember rightly all made by Heinz.
I remember a Micheal Caine film when he was Harry Palmer he was in a supermarket which was a new way of shopping then. He was cooking a meal for Susan Lloyd and brought a tin of mushrooms, she picked the tin up and said "Champignons you are spoiling me"that always makes me laugh as though he was a great connaisseur cooking with posh tinned mushrooms.

Was it her that mentioned the champignons? There was an earlier scene in the supermarket where his boss picked them out of Harry’s trolley and suggests they were a rip-off and Harry replies “They really do have a better flavour”. The close-ups of Harry’s hands in the cooking scenes were actually those of Len Deighton who wrote the book the film was based on and who was an accomplished cook. He used to draw a cookery column in one of the broadsheets. Canned veg ( and especially fruit) was more of a thing in the sixties because because comparatively little fresh produce was imported. Working class Harry Palmer being a gourmet was very zeitgeisty and the audience then would have been impressed with his sophistication although, I agree, it seems funny now.

I remember having that Heinz Russian salad at my aunt's house in the early 60s. Vile stuff, which my cousins always referred to as "cold sick".

I often wonder if Martha's in utero alcohol exposure will emerge later in childhood. It seems so unlikely that she is unaffected.

Len Deighton is a much under-rated writer. Still alive, apparently (95 years old)! I hope he's OK. Michael Caine is still alive too, of course, but the lazy slacker has decided now he's 91 he won't act any more.

I remember Russian salad. I think we used to get pots of something of that sort from M&S occasionally in the 70s. There was a 'Florida salad' too, I think - it had mandarin segments in it too. Another vomit-like comestible (in appearance) was Heinz sandwich spread, which I always liked. Good in an egg sandwich.

I was fascinated by the old synopsis that ‘Always’ put up, to read the earlier part about Susan being surprised that Alice was giving up breast feeding. Very wise if she was drinking heavily, but if she had only just done it and was already attending AA meetings perhaps Martha was getting it through the breast for a period too.

I thought the placenta may provide some limited protection in utero, but apparently not. It seems some of the worst effects are apparent pretty soon after birth so at least that seems not to be a factor, but who knows what could be lurking.

(who was that bloke at work ... or have I imagined him?) which certainly involved alcohol and probably driving home. I occasionally idly wonder if Martha is Chris's daughter

You might be conflating Alice and Lily,@Gonners. Lily had a work ONS with Sol. There was a bloke at Price Baumann who was making Alice’s life difficult - can’t recall his name - but I think it was competition and undermining with harassment rather than anything mutual.

I think there was a bloke at work, starts with A? I don't think they had sex, but I think Alice may have been getting overfamiliar on work nights out, and there may have been a kiss. I may be misremembering, though. I don't remember if there was harassment, but there could have been.

Yes his boss did mention them in the supermarket, but Sue Lloyd was the one in his room who mentioned the champignons while he was cooking and no doubt trying to impress her to get in her nicks. Cant believe Micheal Caine was a sex symbol in those days.

❤️ that would be lovely - but how long is anyone allowed happiness in soapland. I was bereft after a break of many years to find Nigel had fallen off the roof, and no sooner do I start listening again than Jennifer is snuffed out.

Now ‘Always’ has pointed me to the back catalogue of omnibuses I can catch up in the car (sober obviously) so I can achieve enlightenment, with much righteous indignation at their trials and tribulations ;)

Good luck!! Have you heard the falling off the roof yet?

I like to think the archers isn’t a soap and would be a bit more realistic that there are some relationships that can go the long term!!

mentioning Nigel has reminded me of Lizzie and Vince. So weird

Thanks Bruiser, not heard the Nigel scream yet, but I believe he didn’t go quietly

I did think I was being a bit demeaning when I wrote soap

….or quickly

With Chris, Adam and Lilian (and maybe more to come who knows?) being so understanding about Alice's Not Guilty plea, surely it is only a matter of time before someone poses the question that if Alice was not in the driving seat then who might have been? The only person at the scene not in one of the other two cars is George - because he just happened to be walking home (is that even his route home?). Maybe even just a hint or a suggestion of this will be enough to jog Alice's memory and stir up enough fragments to put two and two together with the fruit cider. I also wondered about George's phone. Having just broken my DD's iPhone and forking out for a new one I can attest that that they are not cheap (ouch) so I was surprised to hear a Grundy had been fixed up so quickly and that it was not being suggested the sale of Bartleby could pay for that (and there would not be much change left over!)

But Chris definitely has doubts about what went on, and has seen the change in her since she stood up for her beliefs - like the old Alice Or like the old on-the-booze Alice

Well, put him in context, Harry Palmer was the anti-James Bond. Working class, non-com, a bit dodgy and in a much seedier world more of an anti-hero. Also, Caine had been very dashing in Zulu, was it the year before?

I loved Game, Set and Match. Haven't read them for years but I might dig them out and re-read.

I also loved Heinz sandwich spread. I saw something similar in M&S recently and had it in a sandwich with pastrami. The taste took me right back. My DS was laughing about how deprived my early years must have been if I was nostalgic for something that looked like that. After he had it in a pastrami sandwich, however, he took the jar away with him, saying he wanted to show it to my DIL ... I haven't seen it in M&S since.

I can vouch for the tinned fruit. In the 50s pudding virtually every day was tinned fruit and custard (if it was plums) or evaporated milk (if it was peaches or apricots).

By the 60s we got a deepfreeze (still uncommon - many people didnt have a fridge, suspect lack of deepfreeze contributed hugely to the amount if tinned stuff) and could take advantage of the far greater variety of plums than you can get today - Victoria, Purple Pershore, Yellow Egg, Czar are just a few.