Archers thread #167: Welcome to Ambridge, the world capital of loose ends! Discuss The Archers here.

[Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g]

Thank you, @PseudoBadger, for kicking off this long, long series of Archers threads.

All views on The Archers welcome here! New blood welcomed, and of course we are always delighted to welcome back former or occasional listeners/posters. We don't all agree on all points, although we do mostly try to be civil about it. Most of us are posting tongue in cheek a lot of the time, so don't worry about revealing that you'd like The Archers to be wall to wall election conversations for the next month, or other unusual views.

Spoilers: not on this thread, please! We don't wait for the omnibus to discuss the weeknight episodes, but we do try our best to avoid cross-contamination from www.mumsnet.com/talk/radio_addicts/4636789-the-archers-spoilers-thread-7-cant-wait-for-702pm-join-us-here, where spoilers are positively welcomed!

For newer listeners, lurkers or those who just have no idea what we're talking about, @DadDadDad has created this useful thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/radio_addicts/3557323-For-Archers-fans-a-guide-to-acronyms-on-the-long-running-discussion-threads-and-any-other-meta-thread-questions-you-may-have - BOOP point for him! (See thread for explanation.)

Over to you!

How will the money get split?

£166 for everyone who voted or £500 for Ed, Will and Eddie?

Either way, I'm sure it'll be spent wisely....

Nice little earner at The Bull

I've taken my rose-coloured specs off regarding Ed!
Who else voted to sell Bartleby?
Will, Eddie and 2 others - they're cards are marked I tell you!🤬

*their cards
shows how cross I am to get the spelling wrong!

Mia? For animal welfare reasons she thinks he would be better off without

and Poppy or Keira who don’t really care about bartleby and just want the cash

I think Harrison is thinking of opportunity cost. I would hope we are far past not considering any father at all in a baby loss. The official record is referred to as baby loss which reflects how the many of those consulted perceived it. Although officially not classed a baby until it is born, not even a minute before.

The one biological fact however is that the start of another genetically unique human is the point of conception. From then it just needs to develop and grow, having its own heartbeat after 3 weeks, which is what they were looking for in Fallon.

It is not called a foetus until some weeks later, when it starts to resemble a person - possibly because we favour things that are like us, but I consider that a bit embryophobic.

I am not supporting either Fallon or Harrison’s views on this, just their right to have them and that both have logic. It is a great pity Harrison behaved in such a self obsessed manner initially and sad but understandable they could not discuss it, which has really compounded things. Saddest of all for them as a couple is that they love (loved) each other very much but their views are so divergent on this massive issue.

I am not sure they did not know about it until it no longer existed as it may have still existed after the positive pregnancy test and lost between that and the next days scan. So we don’t know either way

I would have thought the urgency in Fallon returning for a scan the next day would have been down to concerns over a pregnancy with a coil. The hospital would have wanted to rule out a possible ectopic pregnancy (more likely with a coil) ASAP.

Harrison doesn't seem to have grasped that the outcome for a pregnancy with a coil was always going to be poorer. Fallon was still traumatised after the accident and presumably in no fit state to process and explain the situation to Harrison before the hasty scan.

But someone at the hospital should have suggested this wasn't necessarily going to be a happy scan for Harrison.

There's been no suggestion as to how far on Fallon was, is there?

I am unsure on the details but I seem to recall she suffered the miscarriage a few days later and was in pain. I was unclear as to when the coil was removed? The whole thing would have been very unpleasant for Fallon just from a medical perspective and ignoring the emotional side so she certainly required kindness and not a sulky husband talking about murder and banging up her best friend

also note that part of fallons concern was Martha but Harrison dismissed that and seemed to think her not having her mother in her life was irrelevant. Not exactly a good parenting sign that he is able to dismiss a child’s need for a parent so easily

As the decision to sell Bartleby was

a) a financial decision and
b) made by the Grundies

we already know it's going to go wrong.

The only question is how? Is Meg going to monetise Bartleby on social media, make a fortune and leave George envious and seething?

I think the £1500 is less significant than removing the ongoing risk of sudden major vets bills, and is quite financially astute from that point of view.

But it's still a heartless decision. And because it's a Grundy decision, it will be a Wrong Decision.

If she is on holiday with John I’m sure she tried to tell him she didn’t want to go but he walked away/wouldn’t listen. And the pictures she sent Paul might have suggested she was having a great time but I’m sure she was putting on a brave face for his benefit.

There’s been a lot of harsh judgement towards Denise. Let he who hasn’t been forced on a holiday against their own will cast the first stone.

Poor suffering Denise. I wonder is there a swimming pool where they're staying?

Hang on: he is ordinary CofE, isn't he? I am not at all sure that particular dogma is a requirement. In fact I am reasonably sure it is not.

Harrison's a fairly new convert though and I don't know whether he'd be fully up on Church policy? I do know CofE people who believe life begins at conception (maybe they're more High Church which seems to be somewhere between CofE and Catholicism?).

But as @VoxPop says, he's mourning the opportunity (because the unviability of the baby, either as a biological/coil-affected process or Fallon's decision, hadn't occurred to him). He absolutely should be allowed to deal with that but not at Fallon's cost.

It's clear that their policy of "Let's not talk about this" isn't working. It never does - the elephant gets bigger until it smothers you both!

“There's been no suggestion as to how far on Fallon was, is there?”

I don’t think so but as they were counting lack of a heartbeat as evidence of loss of pregnancy then assumed it must be at least 3 weeks from conception (which counts as 5 weeks gestation).

you think if it was much more she might have already suspected from missed period but I understand the coil can make periods irregular so in that case could be several weeks but obviously still very early in pregnancy.

Embryophobic? What?

I feel that Fallon and Harrison have moved so far apart that they can't possibly get over this. Fallon can stay, Harrison can ask for a transfer to another force, preferably one a long way off. Kirsty can move in with Fallon as lodger when Roy inevitably announces that he's not coming back from Bulgaria.

Embryophobic? What?

What on earth is "embryophobia"?!

I don't think I want to know!

Ha ha thought you would like that, that’s how language evolves. Thinking an embryo is less than a foetus because it looks less human, even though it is just at an earlier development stage. Did wonder if I needed to put a ;

Agree about the relationship.

I’m not sure I could stand the tedium of Kirsty moving to lodge with another householder. She has her own frigging house! Quite why we’re forced to encounter her as this eternal lodger is beyond me.

Thanks totally agree. From my POV not necessarily religious based at all

Just so sorry for both of them and Fallon has been so patient with him, when she has had to cope with everything.

If Harrison’s parents gave them the money for the deposit I doubt he would quietly leave. The parents would have been stupid not to ring fence the money from future risk of divorce.

grundys have done no checks of their own to make sure bartleby would be going where meg says. She could be a cruella deville type. I’m getting flashbacks about Boxer now.

Thinking an embryo is less than a foetus because it looks less human, even though it is just at an earlier development stage

But they are different, it just recognises a change in developmental phase. It's not "embryophobic" (why must everything be phobic? ) to say there's a difference. It probably doesn't matter at all to a woman in terms of how she feels about wanting/not wanting it.

grundys have done no checks of their own to make sure bartleby would be going where meg says. She could be a cruella deville type. I’m getting flashbacks about Boxer now.

This. From what we've heard, they haven't even googled her. Emma could ask her brother, as he is the only farrier in the county. Or they could ask Jakob, as they've been speaking about Bartleby's care. They wouldn't even have to go to that much effort to hear the basics.

(for the 14,217th day of his life) I s that a guess ir did you work it out?

I'm sure he wouldn't leave quietly, but I'd hope Fallon can get the money together to buy him out. Perhaps Wayne has silently been saving every last penny of his salary to leave to his only child and will decide to hand it over now? Or Woodbine Cottage could be sold and Fallon could live on a houseboat next to Rex. We could end up with a little colony down there. I have in mind something like this.

Is that Little Venice?