Archers thread #166: Choppy waters in Ambridge! Look out for the red flags and discuss The Archers here.

[Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g]

Thank you, @PseudoBadger, for kicking off this long, long series of Archers threads.

All views on The Archers welcome here! New blood welcomed, and of course we are always delighted to welcome back former or occasional listeners/posters. We don't all agree on all points, although we do mostly try to be civil about it. Most of us are posting tongue in cheek a lot of the time, so don't worry about revealing that you'd love to be married to Harrison, or other unusual views.

Spoilers: not on this thread, please! We don't wait for the omnibus to discuss the weeknight episodes, but we do try our best to avoid cross-contamination from www.mumsnet.com/talk/radio_addicts/4636789-the-archers-spoilers-thread-7-cant-wait-for-702pm-join-us-here, where spoilers are positively welcomed!

For newer listeners, lurkers or those who just have no idea what we're talking about, @DadDadDad has created this useful thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/radio_addicts/3557323-For-Archers-fans-a-guide-to-acronyms-on-the-long-running-discussion-threads-and-any-other-meta-thread-questions-you-may-have - BOOP point for him! (See thread for explanation.)

Another thread started in great haste, mid-packing! Over to you.

Personal experience? Dark past - adoption - break down - relentless cheeriness

It might explain why Joy moved to Ambridge; she hoped to forge a relationship with her biological daughter.

Perhaps the address in Joy's address book is correct, but the man who answered knows Rochelle only by her current name, and didn't know Rochelle was her first birth name.

Has anything about Joy’s husband/Rochelle’s father ever been mentioned?

We're doing 5-6 pages a day still! I had thought it would drop right back to maybe 1 or 2 soon after the crash.

How old is Joy? She's young at heart but may be older than she sounds. I was just remembering a friend who had a baby back in the 60s, in one of those awful homes for Fallen Women run by nuns. She was fine with the adoption, but rather appalled that she had to register the baby with the adoptive parents' choice of name: Belinda. That might explain "Rochelle".

You’re entitled to your opinion of course but you may feel a bit sheepish when Mick is shurikened to death with a stale stottie (it’ll look like a catering accident, natch).

I asked this as well @VJBR and I don't think anyone has come up with anything.

I've imagined Joy as being in her early 70s.

Jackie Lye, the actress who plays her, is 64. But there’s no guarantee that Joy is the same age.

There’s no date of birth on Joy’s character entry here:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/profiles/3tYCTrxJq0f2TLmt8RkN2tR/joy-horville

Euphemism klaxon 🚨 How ‘intimate’ have Mick and Joy been? I’m just wondering - they’re not going to pull a Hayley Cropper (sp?) on us are they? Is Joy actually James, Rochelle’s father, who she distanced herself from when he transitioned? Joy as written (which is the only Joy, I have to remind myself!) would be super duper supportive of a trans child, so if Rochelle was trans that wouldn’t be the reason for the estrangement.

Words cannot express how little I want a trans storyline! I thought they might be going that way with Mia at one point.

Prison?

Didn’t Joy pose as the life drawing class model? That might have raised eyebrows if it became clear Joy was actually a transwoman!

In Fictionland you ‘can’t tell’!

Another thing. God help me, but the way Harrison has been written over the last few years is starting to make sense now we know the depth of his yearning to be a father. What we’ve thought of as sudden character changes - the cricket, the religious awakening, the nature loving, the work/life balance thing, not to mention his obsession with Martha (I’m sure I’m forgetting something) - he has no idea who he is if he can’t be a father! We thought the SWs didn’t know what to do with him, but maybe they’ve been playing the long game, and showing that it’s Harrison who doesn’t know what to do with himself.

That would be so ridiculous. The idea that no one could tell? People don't "pass" (is that the right word?) that well.

not that they means they won’t do it of course - I don’t mean your suggestion is ridiculous, just that the storyline would be.

Tbh I hope the Rochelle mystery doesn't turn out to be anything really depressing and tragic. Joy really did switch for a moment there so I'm wondering if there is a different side to her we haven't met yet.

In the hands of skilled SW, the H&F dilemma could have been interesting and moving.

Man loves woman so much that he's prepared to sacrifice being a dad to be with her. Until something happens that makes him realise how much he wants children.

We could have listened to them talk, come to the decision to split and observe how two people separate when they love each other very much.

But no, true to form, the SL blew it.

Regarding Harrison. I'm quite upset by the comments on here about a cluster of cells and non baby. I had an ectopic pregnancy at 7 weeks after 2 years of trying unsuccessfully. I was grieving so much it all but ended my marriage. I needed medication, counselling and I've never been the same again. The grief isn't related to how advanced the pregnancy is but how much it was wanted and the sense of loss from thinking it's happening to it not.

A friend told me that most people wouldn't yet have considered mine to have been a baby. Those words meant I felt a fraud to be grieving so I bottled it all until I had a breakdown.

I’m slightly envious of dispute resolution in your world, @BeatriceBatchelor, if that’s what you’d expect from the story!

I don’t find the misunderstanding, silence, denial, delusion, unreasonable sudden hope, reluctance to confront, increasing pain, hostility, volume and accusation between Fallon and Harrison at all unlikely or unrealistic. It must be a shock for each of them to find that no amount of time, patience or love is going to shift the other from their stated opposing position.

I unfortunately have very limited experience of calm reasoned discussion in the face of heightened emotion and irreconcilable difference. If I lived in their house I’d probably be shouting and wailing too - whichever side I was on. So I don’t feel dissatisfied with the way the SWs are handling the conflict.

Sorry I crossed you, @Gruffallowhydidntyouknow - naturally the story must make for very hard listening for you right now.

I agree with you to some extent. I think Harrison is perfectly entitled to grieve a miscarriage - plenty of people do.

I think the issue people have is more to do with the way he is acting, his expectation that Fallon should feel the same, and his assumption that Fallon (who he knows doesn't want children) would definitely want to keep the baby - it seemed from last night's episode that her having an abortion hadn't even crossed his mind as a possibility. It's his judgement of Fallon for not grieving the baby that is the problem for me. Plus how he's ignoring Fallon's trauma around nearly drowning.

Yes agree it is not that he is grieving the future he lost it is how he is doing it and his complete lack of interest in his wife

someone mentioned his obsession with Martha yet he doesn’t care if she loses her mother. I don’t think he sees a child as anything but a prop and I think he would actually make a dreadful father

Gruffalo - I’m sorry for your loss. I don’t think it matters how far along the pregnancy is and grief is complex. There are two trees in my area where people tie up little notes to lost children/pregnancies and there are some moving comments from people who had early miscarriages. I hope having their loss acknowledged in a place others also acknowledge theirs is comforting but also gives a place to go.

It's the complete and utter selfishness which annoys me. He cares more for a dead foetus than his live wife.

His attitude, which stinks, reminds me of the attitude of extreme "pro lifers" who would sacrifice a woman to save "a baby"

He reminds me of the evil doctors who were responsible for Savita Halappanavar's death.