Archers thread #158: Te Rum? You numpty, numpty, Tom! Empty tearoom follows. Christmas coming, farmers’ stand up, will it make us LOL? No! Discuss The Archers here.

[Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g]

Thank you, @PseudoBadger, for kicking off this long, long series of Archers threads.

All views on The Archers welcome here! New blood welcomed, and of course we are always delighted to welcome back former or occasional listeners/posters. We don't all agree on all points, although we do mostly try to be civil about it. Most of us are posting tongue in cheek a lot of the time, so don't worry about revealing that you think Tom Archer is a great businessman, or other unusual views.

Spoilers: not on this thread, please! We don't wait for the omnibus to discuss the weeknight episodes, but we do try our best to avoid cross-contamination from www.mumsnet.com/talk/radio_addicts/4636789-the-archers-spoilers-thread-7-cant-wait-for-702pm-join-us-here, where spoilers are positively welcomed!

For newer listeners, lurkers or those who just have no idea what we're talking about, @DadDadDad has created this useful thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/radio_addicts/3557323-For-Archers-fans-a-guide-to-acronyms-on-the-long-running-discussion-threads-and-any-other-meta-thread-questions-you-may-have - BOOP point for him! (See thread for explanation.)

Thanks to @LillianGish for the title idea, which may plant an earworm if my scansion just about holds up. @BeatriceBatchelor wanted 'plebby coffee' inserted in reference to my Bolivian coffee anecdote on the last thread, so I'll mention it here instead. Here's hoping Fallon and Emma decamp to the charging station or Grey Gables, or both, to run the type of coffee shop/tearoom people actually enjoy spending time in. Tom's cauliflower eclairs and kale criossants approach sounds more likely to drive the casual trade away from the farm shop and cheese window as well as the Google Translate-named Te Rum.

Feeling very uninspired by TA at the moment, so I have nothing more to say for now. Over to you!

Surely the point with Lily is she’s doing a course that’s about land management or estate management or something (ie what Freddie should be doing) so continues to be more and more suited to handle LL than the actual heir is.

A small mean part of me would like Freddie and Elizabeth to die in a face off after one final patronising remark from E, and Lily gets the lot. She would be a quite ruthlessly efficient manager.

Was Nigel an only child? There’s an astonishing lack of other family members on that side.

I can’t imagine Freddie with a wife and children so if Lily outlives him she’ll end up with LL and will be able to leave it to her children etc.

Same sex parents are quite common where I live in London. Both of my children have friends with two dads/two mums. There was no need for me to sit them down and explain anything to them since they don’t find it odd - probably because they’ve known these friends and their parents since nursery and Reception. Or maybe because we live in an area where many people live very alternative lifestyles so same sex parents are really quite tame by comparison!

Sister called Camilla I think. Who would not have been left anything by their father either. I vaguely remember the twins going to stay with her at some point, or possibly Freddie when he was banned from Lower Loxley due to the licensing condition?

No idea what she does.

It’s a shame they didn't make her more of a sympathetic, Nigel-like character to pop up now and again.

Isn't the idea of the trust that the trustees oversee the assets until Freddie is old enough or responsible enough to inherit the absolute title to the estate? I am not a lawyer but I didn't think the trust was designed to last forever. I am in fact quite surprised that the trustees have any discretion at all over whether to allow Freddie to receive his inheritance. I thought it was a cut and dried position where the will said something like 'in trust till x birthday, then he inherits absolutely'. I can see there might be provisions in a complex will like that to allow for an heir who doesn't have the mental capacity to look after a very valuable asset, but Freddie doesn't fall into that category.

It's possible the Trust is a permanent thing and that LL sits within it, sheltered. Also not a lawyer but I would have thought that was the best way to permanently shelter LL from inheritance tax. Taxes are paid on trusts on a decade by decade basis I believe. Which is preferable to a giant IHT hit when someone dies. Perhaps Freddie will himself become a trustee at some point, but in the meantime is simply a class of beneficiary (along with Lizzie and lily I imagine). I expect someone who knows a spot of Trust law will be along to help us out at some point, but it would be nice to know the mechanics.

I agree with you @Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g .

Picking up on what @Fink said, I too had always thought that Nigel had no choice but to leave the estate to Freddie because of an entail or some other archaic structure out of his control, so I was surprised to hear Lily expressing it in “my Dad chose to leave it to him” terms.
As far as preventing it from being sold is concerned, I suppose that might cut across an entail as the inheriting child could just sell and split the cash with their sibling. It does seem slightly mad that a person could have no way of ridding themselves of a burdensome piece of property other than letting it slowly crumble to the ground.

Looking back, I wonder if the decision to write in boy/girl twins for Nigel was a deliberate plan-ahead for exposing the injustice of male primogeniture. Though there isn’t a title that goes with Lower Loxley is there, so I suppose primogeniture is not what we’re talking about here, more complex ancient feudal property law.

PS I AM a lawyer but I still don’t have a clue! 😀

Ah, you haven't yet met the enchanting Camilla.

Think that's her name! Not on the airwaves for some years. Probably one of the trustees?

Keeping family assets in trust is very common in very wealthy families. It’s a way to avoid having to sell the asset for inheritance tax as landed gentry tend to be asset rich and cash poor.

the saying ‘money is gained and lost in 3 generations’ is another reason for the trusts if you want to continue familial wealth. So I know of families where they have put the money in trust and it can only be spent on education of future generations.

I would imagine Freddy is the beneficiary of the trust and won’t actually be the owner of lower loxley. Again making lilys complaint even weirder as she can go off and live whatever life she chooses with her inheritance but Freddy is stuck with his only way out leaving someone else to run the house but get an income from it (although not sure how profitable big country homes really are)

Are the twins in their mid twenties? I must be getting old because they seem to behave like they’re 19.

Born 1999 so they have just turned 24. Lily was first out, I have just read on the BBC cast page, so that supports my theory that the SWs always had a plan to expose the injustice of the male line inheriting.

At the time he made his will, an entire country could be left to a woman only if there were no sons, and titles still descend down the male line. Hell of a weight of tradition.

Even today, it’s more likely that a woman will trail across the country following her husband’s job than vice versa. It probably felt safer to leave it to Freddie. After all, he didn’t know him like we do.

Oh aunt Camilla that rings a faint bell, was Freddie there having a horrible time and then Shula took him in?

Why are the visiting older women always stereotypical dragons? I'm sure in the older days of the Archers there were rather glam types wafting in and out. And yes someone fun/kind like Nigel would be nice.

Why is it that Paul always organises stuff thats not the norm He told us. “I like other people’s birthdays more than my own”. He enjoys the chance to do things he’d like to do without the impediment of being restricted to once a year.

I used to like Paul, now I just find him wearing.

A completely un-Nigel-like personality, if I remember rightly. More in their mother's vein (Joan)?

I am in fact quite surprised that the trustees have any discretion at all over whether to allow Freddie to receive his inheritance.

It's not unusual for such inheritances to be in place till the age of 25, which is in a year's time which is probably why we're just starting to hear of Lily's resentment, in time for it to build up to Freddie getting loose from the trustees.

When is she due to graduate? Is she in her second or third year? I have lost track of when Russ went, too.

Lily isn't alone. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/the-hares-take-on-the-heirs-in-parliament-where-royalty-led-the-aristocracy-may-follow-with-succession-rights-for-girls-to-be-debated-8891780.html

@Abra1t Julia

Actually @Abra1t I need to apologise and correct myself as I had a quick check on TA website and copied and pasted as follows:

Her name was not Julia but Joan. Their father was a greengrocer who had a market stall originally but went on to get his own shop. He had wanted both of his daughters to do secretarial training, but Joan saved up every penny and took dancing lessons. Joan had the looks and intelligence. Ellen always envied Joan her legs - they used to call her Lewisham's answer to Betty Grable.
Julia was playing in Bridlington in the early 40s when Gerald Pargetter was stationed near with his regiment. He went to see the show and fell madly in love. Before Gerald there had been a string of admirers. Ellen was very proud of her sister.

I'd rather be Lily than Freddie. Inheriting some money, along with the cachet of an attachment to a stately home.
Do Freddie and Lily have titles? Bc if she also has a title then that's an extra bit of shine. Bar the death of a beloved dad at a young age, I'd take that!

🙂

Back in the days when I had to study Capital Transfer Tax (which they promptly replaced with Inheritance Tax), I seem to remember that estate planners would have the Trust mature when the beneficiary turned 25.

You would have thought that the writers would have seen enough episodes of Clarkson's Farm to know that any sane landed family leaves the day to day running and strategy to a land agent.

No titles. Landed gentry, I suppose.

Having a title is pretty meaningless unless you have a big name title tbh. Although my knowledge is more based around the old German aristos