Archers thread #156: Fireworks in Ambridge! Helen gave Lee a rocket, but Grey Gables is a damp squib. Is the writing on the (church) wall?Discuss The Archers here.

[Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g]

Thank you, @PseudoBadger, for kicking off this long, long series of Archers threads.

All views on The Archers welcome here! New blood welcomed, and of course we are always delighted to welcome back former or occasional listeners/posters. We don't all agree on all points, although we do mostly try to be civil about it. Most of us are posting tongue in cheek a lot of the time, so don't worry about revealing that you're irresistibly attracted to George Grundy, or other unusual views.

Spoilers: not on this thread, please! We don't wait for the omnibus to discuss the weeknight episodes, but we do try our best to avoid cross-contamination from www.mumsnet.com/talk/radio_addicts/4636789-the-archers-spoilers-thread-7-cant-wait-for-702pm-join-us-here, where spoilers are positively welcomed!

For newer listeners, lurkers or those who just have no idea what we're talking about, @DadDadDad has created this useful thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/radio_addicts/3557323-For-Archers-fans-a-guide-to-acronyms-on-the-long-running-discussion-threads-and-any-other-meta-thread-questions-you-may-have - BOOP point for him! (See thread for explanation.)

Thanks to @OverArmour for the title suggestion, which I have tweaked a bit. I was strongly tempted by Less GGP (Grey Gables Peril) More GPP (Guinea Pig Plot), which was a plaintive cry from @PuppyPerson some days ago, but if Poppy has found new homes for the baby guinea pigs that may be the last we hear of them for some time, sadly.

Surely in the life of the next thread we must hear more from or of Rob, or Ron as some on this thread prefer to call him? <taps foot> Will Kirsty snap and tell Helen a few home truths? Will Pat's shotgun finally be brought into play? We can only hope ...

Also, will we ever find out who owns the other 60% of Grey Gables? Why is Adil AWOL (to use the other bit of OverArmour's title idea!)? Why aren't we hearing from Roy? Will GG ever re-open and will Emma get her Big Chance at last?

So many questions! Over to you.

Last night was one time when I would have liked characters to interrupt/ talk over each other (although I have to admit that this doesn't annoy me in general, either in TA or IRL, I know it's a bugbear for some other listeners). I couldn't believe the length of time Bruce was allowed to rant away with neither Alan nor Tony stopping him. Until Alan eventually stepped in, I assumed they had walked away from the others for a private conversation so unnatural was their silence.

Totally. I had a similar situation in a house share when one of my housemates’ boyfriend effectively moved in - incredibly messy, long showers, there seemingly all the time, took over the living room to game. We had to Have Words with her.

But it was the way Lily was all for doing something about it…but then saw it could be to her advantage if Denise was to be a cleaning / cooking skivvy for them, and suddenly changed her tune. She’s so utterly out for herself.

And the way she speaks to Josh makes me want to punch something. She’s such an entitled self-centred princess.

I've just listened to the episode and agree. I think Alan should have called 'enough' far far sooner. Strange that he didn't
Bruce ended up sounding like a Dickensian villain

Lily has been evil and self-centered for as long as she's had a voice. Up until now it's mostly been directed at Freddy, and has (amazingly) affected the way people (in Ambridge, beside radios, online) saw him. Now that she is spreading the venom a bit more widely maybe people will start to question her world view.

How is Lily evil?

And the way she speaks to Josh makes me want to punch something.

Josh deserves everything he gets, I like most Archers characters (with the exception of Tom) but Josh's whining entitlement - because he's SO busy and SO important and can't POSSIBLY be burdened like ordinary mortals - gets right on every single one of my nerves!

As for Rob's baptism, I thought that was an excellent part of the episode. One of the (many) things that is brilliant about how TA managed the Rob/Helen plot line is the ambiguity of feelings towards those who abuse. On one hand, they do terrible things and cause unending harm and misery. But they do it for a reason, and that reason is often that they are broken people themselves. TA has played with that line very well. I don't feel sorry for Rob but I have compassion for him, when you consider what it must have been like growing up with the sort of father who, even when his own son is close to death, demeans him, sneers at his efforts for redemption and demands that he doesn't turn away when he is being spoken to. You can only imagine what Rob and Miles' childhood must have been like

And poor old Tony's impotence in feeling that he wants to do something to avenge the terrible harm to his daughter but in the end decides that Rob's existence is punishment enough.

Hats off to the SW for that.

Why is Alan involved in the baptism project?

I thought he had handed it off to another vicar. Which I'm sure he would be able to do and his bishop would support him. I feel that Alan likes to wear a hair shirt.

I was just wondering what had triggered the "Lily is vile" comment in the first place. Did it come out of the blue, or has she done or said something in the last week that I've completely missed?

I think it was first trying to get rid of Denise (fairly understandable) but then deciding she can stay if she does all the cleaning. I don't like Lily anyway though.

Yes I’m not sure why vile and evil are used. Josh seemed to have the same reaction

and I thought it was notable that they were scared to ask when she was leaving if Paul was around

He says, because he promised to "support him". Why he promised, I don't know. Misplaced conscience I think. All that guff about how cherished is the repenting sinner, prodigal son and all that. With an unhealthy dose of naivety.

Don't adult CoE Christenings have "supporters" rather than godparents? Probably that's my imagination. The only reference I can find to supporters is that if your chosen godparent hasn't been baptised themselves, they can only be a support not a godparent.

Ah, thanks, I heard the start of that conversation, the wonderment at the place being clean, but didn't realise it was Lily.

He says, because he promised to "support him". Why he promised, I don't know.

He was pretty sure he couldn't be the one to christen him. He should have palmed it all off to the other vicar - and it be done at Penny Hassett. It would be enough support to ensure it happened.

Lily is entirely self centered and has (since we first heard her speak) spent a great deal of time and effort undermining her brother's self confidence and making him seem bad in the eyes of everyone else. She never misses a chance to diminish him, never speaks up to support him. She's just like Bruce. Luckily Freddy is too like his father to turn into a Rob.

And Elizabeth has aided and abetted her.

I'm delighted that she's now doing it outside the immediate family circle and hope she gets called out on it.

Bruce was a very Dickensian villain, indeed. Yes can you imagine what it was like for Rob and Miles as children.

But I'm a bit worried we're being asked to forgive Rob.

Tony def says 'Alan' not 'Helen', the vowels give it away.

It was an unexpected episode, not least because it didn't reveal anything about why Rob asked Brine to be godparent - unless we're meant to imagine his seeking an alternative father figure?

I'd hardly compare Lily with Bruce Titchener.....

I’ve not heard enough of Lily but I think evil is a bit strong.

from what I have heard though Freddy is completely indulged by his mother and very much the number 1 child

So Lily and Josh wanted Denise out…until they realised they can use her as an unpaid maid who will do all the cooking and cleaning. Given her ethnicity, the optics could not be worse.

Bruce has 50 years more practice than Lily. Freddy has never been number one child - that has always been Lily's role, with everything Freddy did compared to his perfect sister and found wanting. He has never been let be a separate individual person, was always the faulty, less able one. His qualities have always been 'wrong' because they were different from Lily's and she was 'right'.

A terrible thing to do to children, and it has harmed both of them.

I didn’t really listen during their teenager hoods but I find Freddy quite unbearable. Sounds like they were brought up competitively which is never healthy. Perhaps Lily was treated as no 1 because Elizabeth was trying to make up for the fact Freddy was inheriting everything? The whole family is a bit odd

i don’t think Lily and Josh were saying they were going to demand she do all the chores but rather they could see the silver lining that it looked like she would. I think your dislike of the characters is overstating what was going on in the scene. I think they are also scared to ask Paul so having a reason for her to stay means they don’t have to

iratepirate
Bruce is awful; presume he was there purely to help Tony empathise about how Rob became what he has.

It's not as if Tony didn't already know what Bruce is like though; they've met before.

They're called sponsors, not supporters. The same as confirmation sponsors.

Bruisername
from what I have heard though Freddy is completely indulged by his mother and very much the number 1 child

If it is indulging him to tell him as a matter of course that he is no good at things (all things, anything he has done), quash his every endeavour, belittle his childish enthusiasms, do absolutely nothing to help him with anything such as perhaps suggest that someone who is the heir to an estate might benefit from a little training in how to run an estate, and force him to continue in academic subjects to which he was completely unsuited, whilst all the time telling his sister how clever she is by comparison with him, and asking his sister to help her by "talking to him" for her, and consulting with his sister about him as if his sister were twenty or thirty years his senior, why then yes, Elizabeth has indulged Freddie.

I can't say I ever heard her treatment of him as being indulgent, though.

This is spot on.

Fair enough! I’ve only really heard the last 6 months so I don’t know all the background. The only thing I remember is Lily getting together with he college tutor and being quite shocked that it seemed so readily accepted