Archers thread #145: The glue that held the Aldridges together is gone. Will they fall apart? Discuss The Archers here.

[Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g]

Thank you, @PseudoBadger, for kicking off this long, long series of Archers threads.

All views on The Archers welcome here! New blood welcomed, and of course we are always delighted to welcome back former or occasional listeners/posters. We don't all agree on all points, although we do mostly try to be civil about it.

Spoilers: not on this thread, please! We don't wait for the omnibus to discuss the weeknight episodes, but we do try our best to avoid cross-contamination from www.mumsnet.com/talk/radio_addicts/4636789-the-archers-spoilers-thread-7-cant-wait-for-702pm-join-us-here, where spoilers are positively welcomed!

For newer listeners, lurkers or those who just have no idea what we're talking about, @DadDadDad has created this useful thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/radio_addicts/3557323-For-Archers-fans-a-guide-to-acronyms-on-the-long-running-discussion-threads-and-any-other-meta-thread-questions-you-may-have - BOOP point for him! (See thread for explanation.)

Lillian and I both made the glue observation, so I thought that would be as good a way as any to kick off this new thread. We raced through the last one, for obvious reasons. This one may last until the funeral. Will Tamsin Greig find time to attend? I do hope so.

The poem Jennifer quoted in her journal is here: www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/43775/rabbi-ben-ezra It's doubtful whether the last of Jennifer's life was the best, but she had plenty to contend with all the way through.

Over to you!

The immediate cause of death was given in the papers Brian brought back from the hospital as having been pulmonary oedema, with aortic stenosis as the underlying causal condition.

Often happens, though, doesn't it, especially when someone dies suddenly and nobody has had the chance to say goodbye, say sorry, make their peace and so on.

Lilian is behaving badly, but I can understand it. She needs a medical person to explain there was nothing she could have done to save Jennifer. She also needs to grasp that Jennifer had decided she would hate have everybody fussing about her, wrapping her up in cotton wool, constantly asking 'Are you sure you should be doing that?' or 'How are you feeling today, darling?' I can see her point, but I think she was mistaken. I can't imagine having a diagnosis like that and not sitting my family down and talking through my decision not to have the operation.

I can't imagine having a diagnosis like that and not sitting my family down and talking through my decision not to have the operation me neither. And especially as she'd already told Tony (I think it's a bit of a weak excuse that he was so devastated Jenny stopped with him. Tony and Pat have had much to contend with over the years and dealt with it all). I do think Lilian is acting well within character by making it all about her and throwing her toys out of the pram (not too dissimilar to Kate in that respect). She is genuinely devastated by the loss of her sister - she would have been mentally preparing for Peggy to shuffle off and not seen this coming at all.

Yes she had the immediate traumatic death impact with no warning. Its not surprising that she keeps revisiting it and is angry or convinced she could have done something if only she had known (as well as the feeling of being left out).

Being realistic, all she would have achieved by knowing is badgering Jenny to have surgery she didn't want and even if she had succeeded its unlikely Jenny would have agreed to surgery before Xmas or the spa trip. I don't see her accepting that any time soon.

The immediate cause of death was given in the papers Brian brought back from the hospital as having been pulmonary oedema, with aortic stenosis as the underlying causal condition.

Right, so heart failure then. Either it had been building up (in which case Jenny would have had swollen ankles and increasing shortness of breath - which Lilian would surely have noticed whether or not she knew there was an underlying problem) or it was sudden decompensation, in which case nothing more could have been done.

It's all about Lilian's perception, which actually doesn't bear much resemblance to reality BUT is both understandable and entirely in character so hey ho.

I was thinking that it’s not just about Lillian wondering if she could have done something differently at the time of J’s death, but also that she didn’t know her time with her might be so limited, while Tony did. Obviously given J’s age it might have been the case anyway, but can see why it would complicate the grief.

Oh dear. I'd forgotten (what I only know from books) that Lilian was widowed very young. She's in a right mess, isn't she?

Prestissimo
Right, so heart failure then. Either it had been building up (in which case Jenny would have had swollen ankles and increasing shortness of breath - which Lilian would surely have noticed whether or not she knew there was an underlying problem) or it was sudden decompensation, in which case nothing more could have been done.

We know, because Brian said so, that Jennifer had been suffering from swollen ankles and shortness of breath; that was why, remembering his own angina attack, he had insisted on her going to the doctor in the middle of November.

(Actually, would a GP have been able to make the diagnosis immediately, beyond knowing that she was likely to have some problem with her heart, or would she have had to go into a hospital for further tests? It may be that neither Jennifer nor Brian knew what was actually wrong until a week or two after that, which takes us into December. And there has to have been some further occasion, on which she was told what the options or lack of them were for surgery and refused open-heart.)

Anyway; since those conditions had been noticeable to Brian in mid-November, Lilian should indeed have been equally able to notice them either then or later. In particular, if they had been going on during the spa and sightseeing day and slowing Jennifer down, which surely they would have done.

With regard to Lilian's misery and fury about not having been told about Jennifer's condition, Tony was absolutely right not to want to tell her he had known since Christmas or so, and Pat was dead wrong to require him to spill the beans. What was the point of insisting that he had to tell his sister that she had been deliberately kept in the dark? It didn't make it any better for Lilian, and it has made it worse for everyone else.

Thanks for the reminder @Asking - I've obviously slept through more than I thought 😂

There's a blood test that indicates heart failure - it's widely available and would certainly be done by most GPs in response to those symptoms. They also might have heard the murmur of aortic stenosis when listening to her heart. To confirm the diagnosis would require an echocardiogram, which currently has a 10-12 month wait for outpatients on the NHS round here, but I'd expect Brian and Jenny to have private cover and be seen accordingly.

They could certainly have been managing her symptoms with medication (surgery would fix the valve but tablets could help with the shortness of breath and ankle swelling). It must have been pretty terrible AS for her to die so quickly.

Did he say swollen ankles? I remember him saying she was getting short of breath. I'm not sure how noticeable I would find that in a 78yo woman, especially as I expect Lilian is not particularly physically fit, given her long years of smoking and knocking back the gin.

Incidentally, I liked the exchange between Lilian and Lynda when Lynda arrived. Lilian apologised for not being dressed, Lynda brushed that aside but said something like 'I thought I'd better wait till after 11' and Lilian said 'Would you like a drink? I'm just having a G&T'. Lynda was very good with her, I thought.

Oh no Justin whatever could you possibly do!?! Quite a strange ending given Minho's step grandma Linda, you know the one the one that lives in a bed and breakfast, is right there.

Failing that, there's always Brookfield bnb. That's just down to one room though isn't it?

I do feel very sorry for Lillian. Her reaction feels very relatable, (although I don't think it's how I'd react.)

With regard to Lilian's misery and fury about not having been told about Jennifer's condition, Tony was absolutely right not to want to tell her he had known since Christmas or so, and Pat was dead wrong to require him to spill the beans. What was the point of insisting that he had to tell his sister that she had been deliberately kept in the dark? It didn't make it any better for Lilian, and it has made it worse for everyone else.

I can see the argument both ways for Tony telling Lillian - if he hadn't it would have been a secret he would have had to carry (which is always a BAD THING, isn't it, in the world of soap operas - and so much more terrible when it came to light further down the track). But what really upset Lillian was when Pat weighed in. It would have been better for Lillian not to have known that Tony had told Pat, then he really could have pushed the line that Jenny swore him to absolute secrecy.

I can't imagine having a diagnosis like that and not sitting my family down and talking through my decision not to have the operation.
I can.
Lillian's reaction is understandable. Tony knew it was on the cards, she didn't.
Everybody's grief is different.
I liked the beautification - won't the undertaker do that?

Maybe I'm just an unsympathetic cow but I have no time at all for Lillian's reaction here. I think she's demonstrating exactly why no one would want to tell her anything like this.

@PedantScorner …

Aortic stenosis is a heart valve problem, fixable with a valve transplant. I know this because MrG had it (in his case hereditary - the valve was bicuspid instead of tricuspid) and had the valve replaced when he was 68. He was up and about in 3 days and home within 10 ... possibly because he persuaded the surgeon to try an American method of going in via a 3" incision above the nipple, rather than sawing through his breastbone. This was in a mainland Europe NHS-equivalent specialist heart unit, though, not in the UK.

His mother had hers done twice, the conventional way - the second time in her late 80s. She lived to the age of 97. But she was a tough old bird! ❤

I can imagine refusing to go through that sawing-through-the-ribs op, with the long recovery and no guarantee.

My Dad had the full open heart valve replacement at 83. It gave him 7 good years.

Did I get a sense of Lynda silently resolving to have ('oh dear, we're redecorating') absolutely NO room for the family.

Reporter synopsis for 25th says "He" (Brian) "explains that he made her go to the doctor because she had been getting breathless and her ankles were swollen, and that's when he found out."

It must be sad to film grieving scenes about Jenny when they’ve so recently lost Robert’s actor in real life 😢

Re Ruairi being missing from Ambridge for so long... it feels like only yesterday he was back for the Hunt Ball with Paul as his date but ending up helping Elizabeth.

My memory for the Archers timeline is hopelessly inaccurate!

But I am enjoying recent events even though like some other posters I can comment only at the beginning of threads

Before this year Ruairi was last on air on 24th November, 2022.

Thanks for the link to the Sheila Hancock podcast @Taswama I'm a huge fan and look forward to listening to it tomorrow. Dame Sheila would make an excellent addition to the Archers cast.