Archers thread #141: The nights are drawing in. Can we turn the clocks back to a time when The Archers was fun? Cackle or carp about The Archers here.

[Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g]

Thank you, @PseudoBadger, for kicking off this long, long series of Archers threads.

All views on The Archers welcome here! New blood welcomed. We don't all agree on all points, although we do mostly try to be civil about it. Most of us are posting tongue in cheek a lot of the time, so don't worry about revealing that you're hoping Ambridge has a pantomime again this year, or other unusual views.

Spoilers: not on this thread, please! We don't wait for the omnibus to discuss the weeknight episodes, but we do try our best to avoid cross-contamination from www.mumsnet.com/talk/radio_addicts/4636789-the-archers-spoilers-thread-7-cant-wait-for-702pm-join-us-here, where spoilers are positively welcomed!

For newer listeners, lurkers or those who just have no idea what we're talking about, @DadDadDad has created this useful thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/radio_addicts/3557323-For-Archers-fans-a-guide-to-acronyms-on-the-long-running-discussion-threads-and-any-other-meta-thread-questions-you-may-have - BOOP point for him! (See thread for explanation.)

Many thanks to @TottersBlankly and @GoldenCupidon for the title suggestions.

Too much to hope, I suppose, that by the time we get to the end of this thread Chelsea's pregnancy is a distant memory and the Horrobins can gear up for a cheap and cheerful Christmas. I really, really hope she doesn't change her mind about the termination. It's a horrible and unrealistic storyline, as most of us have agreed over the past few weeks, but now I just want it to end and be forgotten about.

I do like the idea of Lilian taking on the role of witch in the woods. Much more fun to listen to than Mia sabotaging the Hunt Ball, which is surely bound to go horribly wrong, or the odd wrangling over the stained glass window which we know Peggy won't be contributing to on air , given June Spencer's retirement.

Not a peep out of anybody in Ambridge about all the recent political shenanigans, but that's hardly surprising. Nobody fretting about fuel bills or rampant inflation either.

Also, where's Jenny? I hope Angela Piper's OK.

Over to you!

Why are you loading responsibility for knowing what happens in abortion procedures on to Beth? Do you know? I didn't beyond knowing there are 2 methods and it's much easier before 8 weeks. I did Google. I found one site which referred to induced labour - none of the others did. The main NHS site is below. Where on it does it refer to induced labour?

www.nhs.uk/conditions/abortion/what-happens/

And he (rightly) has no control over what decision Chelsea makes

He has exercised control over and overruled 2 of Chelsea's decisions.

Late-abortion is a very weighty topic for this thread! It’s got very serious on here with detailed analysis of the mechanics of a termination…

I miss the days of casual speculation about topics such as Philip Moss’ electricity bill given his Christmas lights habit and the exact location of Emma’s new upcycled coffee table in the mobile home…

The SWs introduced it. I think it's plausible that none of the parties involved realised how traumatic the procedure would be at this stage.

The NHS site I linked to says late abortions will be done under heavy sedation or general anaesthetic and the patient won't remember anything about it. That isn't suggesting induced labour.

The information on Imperial College London's website is different (and more accurate) It distinguishes between a late surgical termination (up to 18 weeks) and a late medical termination 18- weeks to 23 weeks. A late medical termination involves induced labour, but even on Imperial College's site whilst the process described is induced labour that term isn't actually used.

I find it interesting that out of all the people who know about Chelsea's pregnancy the only 2 who haven't respected her privacy are Jazzer and Ben.

Lass, you seem determined to over interpret (to put it politely), what I - and in previous cases, others - post.
Beth is unavoidably involved in this and we've heard her discussing it. I'm not making her responsible for knowing anything, am just concerned about the credibility of her portrayal.

Likewise with Ben, I was expecting his training to have covered this, but just pointing out that he must be medically minded and is intelligent enough to Google and find reliable answers.

And one would have thought both he and Beth would have been motivated to do that given how long this has gone on.

However, of course people don't always act logically, so 🤷🏻‍♀️

I honestly wonder whether the SWs understood what a Pandora's box they were opening with this SL. They may have wanted to SATTC but surely there were other ways of doing it that wouldn’t have been quite so polarising? I listened to Feedback and was rather bemused by the caller who thought they'd done a great job.

Was there, in fact, any reason to make Chelsea have such a late termination (if indeed she does have one in the end)? She could have had it weeks ago and they could still have allowed Ben his dramatic breakdown, if that’s what they really want to achieve. It sits very uneasily with me that they’ve engineered an already-difficult SL that just piles on far more misery than it needs to.

As I have pointed out actual NHS websites don't mention induced labour so quite how you expect Beth in particular to know this is stretching credulity to breaking point.

That's aside from why anyone would expect Beth to put herself through the mental load of finding out exactly how traumatic her boyfriend's one night Shag's abortion will be.

Bloody good acting from Ben. I found it quite upsetting. And I sort of warmed to Beth because she's put up with a lot in a relationship that is relatively new. At her age, Ben wouldn't have seen me for dust.

I honestly wonder whether the SWs understood what a Pandora's box they were opening with this SL.

It feels as if it's been written as a game of Consequences or that Just a Minute game where contestants add a sentence each to create a story and end up in a huge mess

I've warmed a lot to Beth. She was right to absent herself from Jill's perfect matriarch photograph. She's kept quiet about why she did it, although probably knows she's been criticised for it. She's expressed sympathy for Chelsea.

Are they working up a men's mental health issue? Ben's reactions to everything recently is so OTT. Ruari's "affair" is distasteful but ultimately his business. Ben's reaction to the break up with Beth was completely OTT as was taking to his bed when Chelsea told him as was last night.

I was talking to my Mum (a fellow listener) about this SL. She was a nurse for her whole working life, psychiatric for a short while then general adult for over 30 years. She had no idea that there were different types of abortion or what any of them were. She had a vague equating of abortion with something like D&C but nothing beyond that. I don't think it's necessarily general knowledge amongst people who aren't directly involved in it personally or professionally (or just curious about such things and prone to googling random questions, which my Mum isn't).

I'm also not sure why Beth or Ben would have looked it up. They were both absolutely in the 'it's Chelsea's decision' camp. They probably would have expected her to make her decision knowing what the procedure would entail, but I don't think they themselves would have seen the need to know, until Ben decided that he wanted to support Chelsea more actively through attending the consultation, and even then I'm sure he would rather have remained ignorant, it's just that his desire to be there for her overrode that.

I actually think it would have looked pretty bad if Ben had researched it and then gone to Chelsea saying something like, 'I completely support whatever you want to do, but do you realise what the procedure will be like if you wait another week to decide? My God, it's horrific!' I'm pretty sure B&B would think that Chelsea herself, or at least Tracy, would have researched it themselves. After all, they haven't been privy to the full extent of her dithering and ill-preparedness like we have. They know she was finding it difficult to decide but not how little she understood it. She did keep telling everyone she'd been looking stuff up.

I'm also in the camp of thinking Ben is trying to do the right thing and is a generally decent person, not amazingly mature but also not shockingly immature compared to his peers. It was very clear when Chelsea told him not to come to the clinc that her sole reason was to protect his privacy and so he wasn't awful for deciding that he had the right to choose whether that was for the best or not. He could perhaps have forseen that it would make the situation more stressful for Chelsea because it would mean an inevitable confrontation with Tracy. But he hasn't tried to influence her at all on more weighty matters, and in fact has been very clear that he will support her either way.

As for telling Ruth, he shouldn't have done, but he clearly needed someone to talk to properly. In RL, I'd say something like The Samaritans would have been ideal, but they don't seem to exist in TA. It is a good opportunity for a SL to highlight young men's mental health.

Ultimately, the age of consent is 16 but the age at which most young people in this society would be ready to make a properly life or death decision is not 16, and the age at which they're ready to start a family is definitely not 16. So there will inevitably be a disconnect. I actually think, of all the elements of the SL, Chelsea's indecsiveness is actually not unrealistic. The adults around her being so unwilling to force her to make a decision (albeit they're scared of her running away again) I find much more of an issue.

Just catching up, and realised I mean to write earlier that I wasn't expecting Ben's training to have covered this

Thanks @Fink that all makes sense to me.

I accept that not everyone researches things or, perhaps, is aware of things like I would, and that that isn't 'wrong'.

I hope so too "Totters"

Gah! not "Totters", meant Totters !

I* *looked at NHS websites about abortion procedures. They do not give the information that a termination at this stage would be an induced labour. If Tracey and Chelsea had looked at the same sites it's not surprising Chelsea got a shock in person when she was told.

The main NHS site refers to medical termination in the early weeks and surgical termination after 8 weeks. It says later surgical abortion procedure will be under heavy sedation or general anaesthetic. It's not clear that after 18 weeks the surgical option isn't available and that it's only "medical termination" - but at that point meaning induced labour, which isn't spelled out.

I suppose she could have "researched" "pro-life" sites which might have told her but the assumption would be they are biased.

The incredible and irresponsible part of this story is the doing nothing/seeing no professionals/ not even calling a helpline for so long - not the failure to understand fully what is involved in a late abortion due to inadequate Google skills.

I've never used MAP but wouldn't the instruction leaflet have a tonne of information about what to do next/who to speak to if you missed a period?

It's a really unpleasant story - not because it's about abortion- but because so many characters are being shifted around as pawns to what endgame I don't know. E.g Ben and Rex's fishing trip was a set up for Rex to see Ben being miserable and Rex then, improbably, passing that on to Ruth.

But loads of storylines shift characters around, don't they?

I actually liked the Ben and Rex scenes - they seemed quite natural. After all, Rex is sort-of family, and had lived at Brookfield, so he’s someone Ben would feel relaxed with. And we know Rex to be kind and quite sensitive. One might conclude that he noticed Ben’s distress because Ben was putting up less of a front than he might with other people.

Are you enjoying this story line?

It's so full of obvious, implausible plot devices.
There was no realistic chance that Russ was the father.
Tracey running away made no sense. Natasha bumping into Tracey was a deus ex machina.
The Tracey is pregnant rumour is stupid beyond words- so stupid everyone seems to have forgotten about it.
The Ben and Rex scene (and why wasn't Ben at college?) felt contrived. I didn't think Rex confiding in Ruth was plausible.

Anyway I'm pleased to see Mustardland is almost unanimously of the view that Ben is a waste of oxygen and hasn't done anything to support Chelsea.

Think we'll have to agree to differ on this one, @TheLassWiADelicateAir

Anyone else thinking there’s never a word wasted in the Archers and the recent talk of Alistair adopting Mark’s son was for a reason … will be interesting in a few years when a Horrobin-Archer comes back in to the storyline …

It would have been a far more realistic storyline to show how women seeking the abortion pill are put back by a crappy booking system and find themselves having more invasive procedures.

I hate this storyline as it is so divorced from reality.

I disagree that Ben shouldn’t have told anyone - Chelsea shouldn’t have asked that. He needs to talk about it too. It does affect him, even if the decision isn’t his. But again, far more realistic to have him trying to push an abortion - I don’t know of any man who has accidentally impregnated a woman and NOT wanted them to have an abortion.

Anyway - I loved the sound of the rewilding Halloween event - reminded me of Liz and Nigel’s lower loxley plans from years ago.

I had to think hard who Mark was there for a second!

I don't think the baby will be adopted. They have had plenty of chance to do an adoption storyline most notably with Adam & Ian but stayed clear. The baby being adopted by a 3rd party and then returning would be too Johnnie (sp) like (though i guess it would be 18+ years away).

I can imagine Tracey & Jazzer doing a lot of hands on support and then storylines where Tracey disagrees with Chelsea over parenting decisions.

I feel sorry for everyone, whatever the outcome it's going to be hard.

Well said Totters. I was thinking just that.

I enjoyed the witch episode with the three of them going back to put the kettle on. Lovely.

I was right predicting sabotage from Mia at the hunt event, but it was blooming obvious from the outset.

Serious question- why don’t you just use bookmark? Is it because posting to placemark puts the thread on your watchlist?

I am being tolerant as this SL is clearly going to be used to highlight the poor mental health of young men (and, potentially, the rising suicide rate in this category). Yes, I reckon so too. He seemed to be very much in that “everyone would be so much better off if I weren’t around” feeling I know from my various brushes with depression.

I don't find bookmarks useful, when a new thread starts I post on it so I can find it on threads I'm on which is the function I use. I hope that's not an issue for you?