🍾 Archers thread 123: Goodbye & good riddance to 2020 – to Philip too? The Archers is 70 on New Year’s Day – celebrate or vent about it here!

[Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g]

Thank you, @PseudoBadger, for kicking off this long, long series of Archers threads.

All views on The Archers welcome here! New blood welcomed. We don't all agree on all points and most of us are posting tongue in cheek a lot of the time, so don't worry about revealing that you wish we heard more from Shula, or other unusual views.

Spoilers: not on this thread, please. We don't wait for the omnibus to discuss the weeknight episodes, but we do try our best to avoid cross-contamination from www.mumsnet.com/Talk/radio_addicts/3853783--The-Archers-spoilers-thread-5-Cant-wait-for-7-02pm-Join-us-here, where spoilers are positively welcomed!

For newer listeners, lurkers or those who just have no idea what we're talking about, @DadDadDad has created this useful thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/radio_addicts/3557323-For-Archers-fans-a-guide-to-acronyms-on-the-long-running-discussion-threads-and-any-other-meta-thread-questions-you-may-have - BOOP point for him! (See thread for explanation.)

So! 2021 beckons. Big anniversary next Friday, 1.1.21 (and to mark that we have episodes Tuesday-Friday next week). What would we like to see happen? I may be in a minority of one, but I'd like a nice gentle character-driven episode. I don't think we'll get that, but I really, really hope they don't kill someone else off, just for the headlines.

[Title edited by MNHQ at OP'S request]

I think yesterday’s episode illustrated brilliantly the lack of awareness of this dreadful crime - particularly the interview with Neil. The fact that no one leapt to question Philip’s prices or business practice says it all. It was thought-provoking and made me quickly spool through my history of dealing with builders/plumbers/electricians etc to see if it would stand up to close scrutiny. While I like to think I do due diligence, do I really? Excellent episode.

I think there’s some confusion (in my mind at least, and possibly among the SWs as well) about the delineation between Damara and Borchester Land, and Justin’s role in each. Isn’t it BL who own Berrow? And that’s what Martin Gibson is the Chair of (having ousted Brian, who may now be very grateful for the fact). Does Damara fund BL in some way? Is that why Justin goes throwing his weight around? Or is he ‘just’ a member of the board, who we hear a lot of because he’s a speaking character and it gives satisfactory tension with Brian?

Agree excellent episode last night. I loved the relationship between Kirsty and Linda - that felt very believable to me. And Neil reacted in character - as a pp said he saw someone trying to help their community with the playground (and bell tower? Although I’m not sure how much input the church warden would have on that - wouldn’t the quotes have to go to the PCC or something. I don’t think just anyone can do repairs to an old church and would imagine the CofE have teams of beaurocrac .) The Berrow quotes he wasn’t privy to, so besides knowing that his boss had got a good deal no particular reason that he should have queried it. I think the SWs were demonstrating how easy it is for slavery to go on in plain sight because normal, moral people just don’t consider it a possibility. “It never entered my head”, as Neil said.

Justin's influence pervades much of the village. In 2014, his private equity company Damara Capital became a majority shareholder in Borchester Land (BL), which owns the 1020-acre Berrow Estate.

I had wondered the same, Prestissimo; the above is from his character entry on the BBC TA site:

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/profiles/3tmXKMSl7hgjlDBlf6jzrxj/justin-elliott

(It was nevertheless surprising to hear him writhing beneath Martyn Gibson's boot.)

I think the SWs were demonstrating how easy it is for slavery to go on in plain sight because normal, moral people just don’t consider it a possibility. “It never entered my head”, as Neil said

Or not so moral as they think they are.

We know that a number of Philip's business running customers knew his prices were unbelievably cheap, we heard them have more than one conversation with the likes of Eddie on the subject.

My gut reaction was "it could happen to anyone" but when I thought back through work I've had done, I have turned down quotes which were too cheap to be true unless there is a clear reason for the price. I've heard friends talk similarly.

There is no such thing as a free lunch and whilst the odd individual might be duped into getting "a bit of tarmac laid" cheap the likes of David, Justin, Oliver and Shula could be expected to look into pricing with a more realistic eye. David especially had more than one conversation with Eddie and he knows perfectly well that Eddie's work is largely cash and variable suppliers.

In the middle of that was supposed to be reams of bureaucracy from the CofE - stupid phone!

Thanks @PoulePouletteEternellement. I’m distressed that I can’t decide who is more objectionable out of Justin and Martin - the latter having treated Kathy so dreadfully when she worked at the golf club that she hasn’t spoken since. Both horrible men IMO

I’m distressed that I can’t decide who is more objectionable out of Justin and Martin

I resolved that problem by assigning both to the "arse" bucket. They deserved each other

I suppose turning down a random quote that seems to be too good to be true feels different to someone you know (and like) offering to do ‘mates’ rates’, which is how Philip presented. We have previously turned down quotes that were ‘cash in hand’ for cheaper, and I’m instinctively suspicious of anything that seems to be too good to be true. But I think it holds that we do tend to judge others by our own moral compass and so most people ‘just don’t think’ about slavery. It was evident from DC whateverhernamewas ?Trammers that she comes across this way of thinking all the time and is obviously frustrated because she sees how common slavery is and probably despairs of the rest of us.

Another one here confused about current arrangements at Damara. I thought Martyn Gibson was a director of BL and that Damara had a lot of control of what happened with BL because it was in a position to dish out lucrative contracts to it. But suddenly Gibson is treating him as an underling in the same way as he used to with Brian?

I think what is so brilliant about this particular plot is the way that we the audience were also so completely hoodwinked. Neil’s interview with the police last night could have been any of us (before we were let in on the secret). No one on here predicted or saw any hint of this before the GG fire - our shock then is the villagers shock now. The storyline has done a great job of showing how human slavery can be hiding in plain sight under our noses wherever we are. I didn’t find Ruth’s references to Colston clunky because that is a story that has been very much in the news and is what most people think of when you mention slavery - not the person washing your car, painting your nails or building your extension. Interesting that Jim didn’t use Philip - at the time it felt like an extension of his extreme cantankerousness due to the ongoing childhood abuse story, I wonder if it will turn out that he sensed something? It also explains why it was Shula and not Alan who conducted the meeting about the bell tower steps - the vicar is now distanced from the scandal while Shula is even more up to her neck in it. If TA were a book, I’d be flicking back now to find all the pages where Philip was mentioned to see what hints I’d missed. I’m sure the clues are there - we were all looking for something, his dodgy heart, the fact that he was so dull and Kirsty would never want to live in a new house, but never in our wildest speculating did anyone suggest slavery. Hats off to TA for raising awareness - we will all be looking for it everywhere now.

I think that a lot of this story reflects village life. Phillip has tried to become part of a village where people are very involved in the community and contribute to it. A builder in that sort of community would be expected to do things cheaply for the good of the village, like the playground. I grew up in a village and our local builders got together and built a scout hut together, at cost or less. They were heavily involved in local events, supplying transport etc. I remember my mum getting a bargain for having a porch built in our house because she went to school with the builder (who is now a multi millionaire). Nobody would have suspected any foul play. However it was clear where our builders were also making money by building houses around the area. People in ambridge would assume Phillip was making money elsewhere, but that doesn’t really excuse the businesses that employed him.

Great episode. I cried with Kirsty and squirmed with Neil.

Didn’t Jim take exception to Phillip because of some comment he made about history not being important?

I thought Jim objected because Philip had been foisted on him by Alastair and Jazzer and he wanted to make his own decisions. Whatever the reason, I bet he's glad now (I know it's not real).

I thought Jim didn't employ Philip for the simple reason that he came home one day to find Alistair and Philip sizing up the job without consulting him. He then quite rightly took umbrage (after all, it is his superpower).

Sorry, Captain, cross post.

I think what is interesting about Jim not using Philip - whatever his reasons - is that the SW clearly made a conscious decision that he would not be embroiled in the slavery fall-out.

People in ambridge would assume Phillip was making money elsewhere, but that doesn’t really excuse the businesses that employed him.

You don't expect people to charge less for a job than it would actually cost, which makes it easier to get away with. However, I would expect farmers to have an idea of cost prices.

Has Jim actually got his extension built yet, or did he just refuse to have Philip do it, and we've not heard anything since?

@LillianGish

I think what is interesting about Jim not using Philip - whatever his reasons - is that the SW clearly made a conscious decision that he would not be embroiled in the slavery fall-out.

All the better to mock and harangue the villagers who did become embroiled!

If so they've picked the right person to flay his fellows with his tongue. He could get months of smug vituperation out of this.

"Has Jim actually got his extension built yet, or did he just refuse to have Philip do it, and we've not heard anything since?"

Jim used another firm of builders, but got so grumpy with them using his shed for tea breaks that they walked off. They only came back when Philip used his powers of persuasion to get them to finish the job.
I wonder what he had over the other builders?

Oh yes, I remember now. Thank you, Molly.

Jim took a personal dislike to Philip weeks before the extension because of a conversation they had in the bird hide. Philip didn't bother with binoculars; he just brought his camera. Reader, he judged!

The extension progressed, without Philip, but Jim was rude to the builders at one point and they walked out/stormed off(?) [It was around the time Jim was coming to terms with his childhood abuse]. At that point, at Alistair's request, I think Philip stepped in to phone the builders/make amends [and I thought the original builders returned].

I am guessing that the extension is now complete; it must have been at least a year. It was probably finished during the monologues.

My recollection was that Martin was BL and Justin was their majority shareholder. I think we need Asking!

In my neck of the woods, and given the parlous state of our local newspaper, modern slavery would hit the headlines at the trial and then get buried under reams of drivel about parking spaces and coronavirus stats. Twitter would probably be a little livelier, but most people would still go to swim at Grey Gables and buy BL-reared pork.

I was at a work do with an after-dinner speaker, who was a builder. He'd built up a multi-million pound business from scratch and the talk was "How to succeed."

He said that the secret of his success initially was that he didn't do "mates rates." He said that a lot of the men he'd been at college with made little money for the first few years because they were doing work cheaply for their granny, or their Mum's friend, or their pal's cousin. Whereas he was expecting to be paid full whack from day 1, and everything went through the books. He made it sound as though "mates rates" was a common thing.

If I'd come across Phillip, having heard that talk, I'd have put him into the category of "builders who do mate's rates." The big house wouldn't have puzzled me - I'd have assumed an inheritance, or a lottery win or something before he came to Ambridge.

If he'd grown up in Ambridge and had a puzzlingly large house that would be another thing. But how many people would query a new arrival in the village buying a big house?

@MissBarbary

No doubt members of these (few and far between, hurrah!) wedding parties will have nipped to nail bars and had their cars cleaned in preparation for the Big Day: are the newly woke Dopeys going to demand certificates of ethical manicure and valeting? Thought not

What a strange comment. Firstly people are hypocrites. Secondly the nails/ valeting aren't necessarily slave labour. Thirdly even putting any hypocrisy in the wedding guests aside are they going to want to celebrate in a venue with that history?

The nail bars near where I live are staffed by south east asian men. I am perfectly capable of filing my own nails so have not been in a nail bar.

The only car wash staff I have spoken with have been asylum seekers. Again, I am perfectly capable of washing my own car.

I trim my talons very rarely and have been told they are scary. I think I washed my car two or three years ago, um 2016?

Darker
Looking back, Jim didn’t want Moss anywhere near his extension. I wonder what set off his ‘spidey senses’. (I would have jumped at the chance to use a builder who was known to me and did good, cheap work).

In September 2019 Philip was not particularly known to Jim, and what Jim did know of him he didn't particularly take to. Nor was there any work of his in the village for Jim to have admired at that point apart from the Kennels roof (which Jim would be unlikely to have inspected) and the Dower House repairs (ditto). Philip did not yet exist when all the repairs after the 2015 flood were being done and Jim's house was one of the ones which needed them. The playground refurbishment wasn't until December that year.

On 10th September, 2019, over lunch, Jim unveiled to Alistair and Jazzer his plan to have an extra bedroom for Jazzer built onto his house. That afternoon Jim had a row with Philip at the bird hide, concerning the importance of history. After dark on the same day he discovered Alistair, Jazzer and Philip "measuring up" for an extension to Jim's house, without them at any point having spoken with Jim about what was actually wanted. Alistair had mentioned in the pub the proposed (and nebulous) plan his father was in the process of making, and Philip instantly assumed he would get the job and started to act on that assumption.

I think most people would have thrown him off their premises in those circumstances: deciding on alterations to someone else's house without consulting them is monumentally high-handed. Jim was quite polite about it, merely stating (untruthfully) that he was already in negotiation with a builder to do the work and Philip would not be needed. Philip was unpleasant and vaguely threatening, but left.

He said that the secret of his success initially was that he didn't do "mates rates."
Mates rates don't only go in one direction. You only give out special rates if you expect the recipient to be useful to you in return. You might do a discount for your granny but you don't do it for a mate, you do it for somebody-who-can-return-a-favour.

Damara Capital belongs to Justin Elliott. In April 2014 Damara bought 54% of the shares in Borchester Land. Various people starting with Brian were made and unmade Chairman of the Board of Borchester Land by Justin in the following years. Last I remember the chair was still with Brian, because he was not forced to resign (again) over the pollution of the Am, but I may have blinked and missed someone else being appointed, possibly even Martyn Gibson, who was originally their urban finance director.

Justin was also said in 2014 to own a company called Hasskor which was deeply involved in (and giving 5% of the finance for) the plans to run a new bypass through the middle of Ambridge; they had bought an option on land for a service area three miles up the road.

He also owned a company and land in Perth, to which Charlie was arbitrarily exiled I forget what for. And enough other property for Rob not to be solely in charge of the Berrow Estate (which belongs to Borchester Land) but other properties in the area as well.

That he is now reduced to managing a pig-farm and overseeing a rewilding project is absurd. And that Martyn Gibson though a known and unpleasant bully is able to bully him is ridiculous.