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Discuss your favourite podcast, radio show or The Archers episode.

*The Archers No.95* *Welcome to the 'real' world Ben and Ruarhi, the bad boys of on roading and welcome to the cereal cupboard little Rosie *!

999 replies

ppeatfruit · 14/11/2018 09:39

Thanks to witchmountain for the last thread and to dadx3 for Godfathering them! Also to any other posters whose ideas I have borrowed for the title.

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ppeatfruit · 23/11/2018 09:39

The EfficientBaxster careful on this thread with those opinions, they don't go down well Grin (whispers) I agree with you Grin

I go by my experience.

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Fink · 23/11/2018 10:12

careful on this thread with those opinions, they don't go down well

The reason they don't go down well is because they're factually untrue. Between 90%-95% of domestic violence is against women (men on women and women on women), variation depending on what measure and stats are used. Even if you think that violence against men may be more likely to go unreported than against women, you can't believe that it would be by so great a margin to overturn a difference of 90% (minimum figure). So no, you can't say that men are as likely to be victims as women, even if you try to claim that this doesn't mean the same thing as the same number of victims (perhaps you were referring to percentage of the population by gender, but this still doesn't substantially alter the statistics).

Yes, men can be victims of domestic violence but it is by many miles less likely to be than women are. That's why it doesn't 'go down well': because it's a lie.

ppeatfruit · 23/11/2018 10:31

Aaah of course. What about emotional abuse then (which was mentioned) I would say from my own life that it's about 50 \50 but my life is obviously a lie.

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Fink · 23/11/2018 10:53

No, of course not. Your life experience is entirely valid and it will shape your perceptions of the general state, but it's important for everyone to correct their perceptions with facts. Without a general analysis, your experience is no more than anecdote and you would have no way to know whether your experience were 100% typical, entirely atypical, or where it fell between the two extremes. It may well be true that you, personally, know as many men victims of domestic violence as women, but you can't state that to be something which applies to any population set outside of your own social circle.

For emotional abuse stats in particular I don't know, and I don't have enough data left on my phone to look it up. But I'm sure there will have been some analysis done of it (not really my area so I don't know of any specific study). Either way, the burden of proof is on the person making the claim that goes against general domestic abuse stats to find evidence that emotional abuse specifically affects both sexes equally.

Bittermints · 23/11/2018 10:56

Speaking as a non-expert on this, would this be accurate?

Most perpetrators of domestic and sexual violence are male. Most adult victims are female. (Not sure if there is a sex difference when it comes to child victims. Sad) Men are physically stronger than women, so can cause a lot more damage. Male socialisation results in more aggression and less inhibition about using violence, because in some families (and this is backed up by some toxic social attitudes) boys are not taught to suppress aggression, not encouraged to talk about their feelings and be kind to/care about others, and they grow up with a stronger sense of entitlement to get what they want at all costs. (Obviously some women grow up like this too, and most men don't. But far more men grow up like this than women.)

Both men and women can be emotionally abusive. If a woman is an abuser, this is the most likely form of abuse for her to perpetrate, because it doesn't require great physical strength. However, many women who are emotionally abusive are likely to be physically abusive to their children at least occasionally. They may also collude with, or turn a blind eye to, or be almost wilfully negligent in reference to monitoring the behaviour of, a male who is physically and/or sexually abusive to their children.

To state the blindingly obvious, emotional abuse can be very damaging. I've seen it stated it takes far longer to get over emotional abuse than any other form because it's a betrayal of trust and it destroys self-confidence and damages future relationships.

I surmise that coercive control is overwhelmingly a male crime from what I've read about it. It isn't necessarily backed up by physical or sexual violence, or the threat thereof, but it often is. It would virtually always include financial abuse and it is a specific form of emotional abuse. Men get away with it more than women because we still live in a deeply sexist society so when people see a heterosexual couple where the man calls the shots they may shake their heads in private but they don't necessarily see it as abuse.

Wordy, sorry.

Bittermints · 23/11/2018 10:59

PS Please, please, Archers SWs and Editor, if you're reading this, don't go down the abusive relationship route again for Helen (or anyone else). Once was enough. I'm not sure I could bear to go through it all again.

BertrandRussell · 23/11/2018 11:12

Bittermints and fink- exactly.

Ppfruit-no of course your experience isn't a lie. It's just not data.

BoreOfWhabylon · 23/11/2018 11:15

I was surprised to hear Helen immediately take Lee's side and accept his version as the truth of the matter. I'd have thought her experience would have made her all too aware of the public/private face of some abusive men.

R4 · 23/11/2018 11:23

I'd have thought her experience would have made her all too aware of...
Really? When did anyone at Bridge Farm (Johhny doesn't count, he's not born-and-raised) show any insight or awareness.Hmm

BoreOfWhabylon · 23/11/2018 11:28

True R4.

Fink · 23/11/2018 11:36

Bittermints I'd agree, broadly speaking, with your analysis. The only nuance I would add (we're still talking in broad brush strokes) is that we can't take a heteronormative approach. The prevalence of domestic violence in gay relationships is not insignificant (stats are hard to come by, but most would agree that dv is at least as likely in homosexual couples than in heterosexual, if not significantly higher), which skews the stats because it means that some of the male victims are abused by other men, not women, and some of the female perpetrators abuse other women, not men (and vice versa).

Still, generally very insightful. Thank you!

Fink · 23/11/2018 12:05

Sorry, I was in a hurry to post before going underground on the tube. I didn't realise quite how patronising I sounded, Bittermints. Didn't mean to do that! Blush

ppeatfruit · 23/11/2018 12:12

Statistics can prove anything. I give up.

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TeenTimesTwo · 23/11/2018 13:11

This has got a bit serious for an Archers thread!

Who thinks Lily is enjoying Manchester as much as she is trying to imply?
Who will do stir up Sunday (unless I have missed it?)
Are we going to have lights going on around the green?
Will the Grundys sell all their turkeys?

JessieMcJessie · 23/11/2018 13:21

I think Lily has barely been allowed to meet any other students or even spend time on her studies because Russ is so clingy and demanding. But she’s observed what fun her peers are all having and has realised she’s made a huge mistake. That was clear in the way that she was when Johnny (who knows nothing of Russ) was saying to her what a fab social life she must be having.

Re Helen and Lee, I don’t know why the SW could not just have made him an amicably divorced good bloke. (Him being single and childless would have been pushing it a bit much, and having kids is probably a good way to ensure that he does bring some paternal maturity to the party). They do exist. Surely this SL can’t be heading anywhere except Helen finally getting together with a good one, who will hopefully put the frighteners on Rob, should he ever pop up to reclaim “Gideon”?

Cromercrab · 23/11/2018 13:28

I"ve only listened to bits this week, but I did hear whingeing Russ extract a promise from Lily that she'd return on Tuesday, and I note that, as of Thursday, she is still in LL and planning to stay longer. Is she avoiding Russ? have the scales fallen from her eyes, but she is too proud to say so? She seems happy as a lark back at LL, organising everyone. Perhaps she will defer the year, get LL and her mother sorted, Freddie will return, she will shuffle off Russ (who will try and get his mitts on the Gwen John - perhaps even try and steal it, claiming Lily made a present of it to him, the rotter) and then return to Manchester, to do her mysterious degree.

Have to say I don't care about Jill's fruit cake/pudding, the lights on the green, the Grundy turkeys, or their cider. (Although I would give much to hear Jazzer say, a la the old ISIHAC joke, that he imagines Clarrie is hoping Eddie will be big in cider.) Only interested in the Christmas show if the foreshadowed conflagration occurs.

Bekabeech · 23/11/2018 13:46

The only thing I can add is that Lee's comment about his ex being difficult about contact made me think of Fathers4Justice - and wouldn't Rob be a member?

Minimammoth · 23/11/2018 14:23

Are there still Fairbretheren Geese?

LillianGish · 23/11/2018 14:33

Re Helen and Lee, I don’t know why the SW could not just have made him an amicably divorced good bloke. I agree. It sounds like Helen will hit it off with the horsey daughter, but with all her previous jitters over Lee I can’t believe his comments about his ex wouldn’t have set her off again.

DadDadDad · 23/11/2018 14:59

Statistics can prove anything

I totally support T^3 moving the discussion on, but I can't let this comment lie. Sorry, ppeat, but it's a slur on a rigorous discipline. I know there's that old line about "lies, damned lies..." that's unthinkingly trotted out, but that's more about people misinterpreting statistics.

Statistics doesn't just pull robust conclusions out of the noise of data and experience. It can reliably tell you how certain you can be about those conclusions, which is a powerful thing.

Statistics can be relied upon, anecdotes can't (amongst my acquaintances, I don't know any men who have suffered spousal abuse, but I know one woman, but my experience doesn't counter yours; we need carefully collected data).

Medicines, for one example, cannot be demonstrated to be effective without statistics.

DerRosenkavelier · 23/11/2018 15:17

I think Including the Canterbury Tales is interesting as all the pilgrims who tell their tales are defined by their occupation/ station in life. There is a rigid social hierarchy, not unlike Ambridge.

And Lillian is totally the Wife if Bath.

Fink · 23/11/2018 15:56

I agree that I wish Lee had just been an uncomplicated nice guy. Doesn't Philip also have an allegedly difficult ex (I might have imagined that)?

Bittermints · 23/11/2018 16:09

Fink, I certainly didn't read that as patronising! Far from it.

Anyway. Stir up Sunday, you say? Oh good. I made my pudding a few days ago. Fruit currently (or should that be currantly, ho ho ho) soaking in rum ready for my Caribbean rum cake to be made early next week.

birdsdestiny · 23/11/2018 16:22

I have made the family Xmas cake ( shared with parents) since I was 13, this weekend 14 year old ds is taking over. He is taking gsce food and nutrition and it appears to be one of the best decisions he has made. I wilk be sitting on my butt on stir up sunday drinking port.
I wonder if it's a false flag with Lee, Helen will worry that he is abusive and then it will all turn out to be lovely.
I would love Roy to go to Bulgaria, I find him unpleasant, and have never for one moment believed in him and lexi as a couple.

BertrandRussell · 23/11/2018 16:26

"Statistics can prove anything"

No they can't. Anecdotes can.