Christmas is coming, the geese are getting fat, please put a penny in Joe Grundy's hat. Discuss The Archers here.

[PseudoBadger]

Ho ho ho! Will this thread last until Christmas?

I don't think any of the classes do well out of it and it is just lazy stereotyping which I think was worse under soc

The mysogyny is very apparent though in even the smallest gestures.

I don't think bridge farm is much of a prize inheritance wise. And Peggy's money will be gone within a generation.

True, misogynist and classist. And not great on race issues either.

Black and Asian characters are allowed providing they join whole-heartedly in "white" culture - ideally by marrying or having relationships with white people (Usha twice, both of the vicar's wives, Ifti with Lizzie).
New female vet is into horses - Shula expresses her surprise that she has such an interest - no horses in Sri Lanka or Scotland?

Breaking my silence to disagree with the misogyny accusations! Also don't understand the earlier comment re. Jenny (allowed to look nice) and Lillian?

Lilian had some Botox or something after Tiger ran away, and it was the source of much mirth among some villagers.

I remember a number of posts on this very thread (which included pix) taking the piss out of what we thought Susan's hair looked like after visit to a particular hairdresser. Why is it misogynist in TA and not horribly anti men to remark on the way Tom and Johnny were livng at number 1.?

Gruach Tracey saw Roy on a dating website or whatever she's only after him because of that. She was in it quite a bit couple of years ago and seemed completely financially unreliable. Like Toby and kenton WHO ARE MEN. I agree Vango There is no OTT misogyny in The Archers it just reflects life.

Aside from that one wobble in confidence Random, Lillian knows she's a good looking woman and the villagers agree, and like her a lot. I can't see the misogyny. If anything, the male characters fare worse than the female when it comes to stereotyping.

Tracey is three years older than Roy (41 to his 38) - I had to check as I don't feel as if I know anything about her in fact I'd forgotten she has two children of her own so they have more in common than I'd first thought. I think her purpose is to illustrate (as if any illustration were needed) what an idiot he was to throw over Hayley for a fling with Elizabeth. And what a contrast Tracey is to Elizabeth - in other words he threw over Hayley in the hopes of getting together with the lady of the house, but all he can hope for now is Tracey Horrobin. Tracey is a lazy stereotype - Horrobin is shorthand for sub-Grundy in TA, but can't agree TA is always classist. Hayley herself was not exactly out of the top drawer and even had a Birmingham accent to prove it (especially when played by Jasper Carrot's daughter in the early days) but as a fully rounded character showed herself be a head and shoulders - indeed an entire ten-storey building - above Kate Aldridge when it came to being Phoebe's mum. She doesn't seem to have had any problems meeting a new Mr Right back on her home turf (though statistically it's supposed to be much harder for divorced women). Tracey Horrobin is Roy Tucker's punishment. Also can't trouble myself too much with the portrayal of such a peripheral character when the SW are making such a Horlicks of the goings on at Brookfield with Ruth, Pip and Jill.

Also don't forget Roy was really painted as a bad'un when he and kate got together - even though he wasn't - I'm jennifer's view Roynled Kate astray acne though it turned out he's the 'sensible' one

Black and Asian characters are allowed providing they join whole-heartedly in "white" culture - ideally by marrying or having relationships with white people (Usha twice, both of the vicar's wives, Ifti with Lizzie).

Disagreeing with the sentiment behind this statement as well! Ambridge is a small village. As Dr Locke and Roy are both currently demonstrating, the pool's not that big. And if Usha and Ifti had ended up together there would have been further cries of racial stereotyping surely?

I also think Tracey has to be painted in the worst possible light so we can remember where Susan has come from and have more sympathy and understanding for her social climbing aspirations. Tracey is everything Susan aspires not to be - from the way she dresses to the names of her children (Brad and Chelsea). It's a reminder of why she wanted the family portrait to be picture perfect.

Yes I'm in Vango's camp. In this village (rural Fr.) we are the only foreigners and there is not ONE black or Asian person living here.

Also don't forget Roy was really painted as a bad'un when he and kate got together

If you discount the racism against Usha, which was really quite grim and totally forgotten about in a year or two. (It must have been 1995, because of where I was living and working at the time, so Roy would have been 16 or 17.)

Coming back to agree with ppeat and Vango. I think the balance is probably statistically about right for a small village where most people are farmers.

Thanks LilianGish I quite like what the interim editor Alison Hindell is going with it atm. LOVED the panto

Also don't understand the earlier comment re. Jenny (allowed to look nice) and Lillian?

Yeah, I should perhaps have been clearer. I meant that Jenny's new clothes/hair does/whatever are generally complimented upon by her husband and positively acknowledged (if at all) by the general populace. It's as if the SWs give her a bye because she's been humiliated enough.

Lillian however - despite being and recognised as being good-looking is relentlessly excoriated by the SWs if she so much as paints a nail.

I agree they are laughing at men's styling aspirations rather more lately. But as women's only currency has generally been in their appearance, laughing at them for trying seems particularly cruel.

We'll have to agree to disagree re. the SW's portrayal of Lillian Gruach.

as women's only currency has generally been in their appearance Come on Gruach We don't ever actually SEE them In fact radio is the only place that we go by what we HEAR about them

Botox is funny, whether used by men or women. Money and real power and status is age's revenge on youth's monopoly on smooth and elastic skin! The thing that is puzzling me at present is Jenny's doublethink about Lillian and Justin. Lillian is the other woman, the morally slack cow nicking someone else's husband (I think everyone knows that the 'open relationship' is just a convenient lie) and Jennifer knows what it's like to be the wife in that situation. Why is she being so supportive of 'poor Lillian'? You would at the very least expect her to be as robust as Brian - 'she knew what she was getting into."

True about Botox Cromwell The sad thing is that the botox and knife seems to overstretch the older skin. Making people look like surprised odd papery skinned 'versions' of themselves (sometimes they look like someone else entirely, however much they pay ). It's a shame that the yoof worship is now so common.

The Jenny/Lillian dynamic is complicated. But can be explained somewhat by Jenny's overall compassion and deep love for her family. She's supported Lillian through all her highs and lows and knows how vulnerable she is. I don't think Jenny is happy about what's going on but doesn't compare it to her own experience. Justin isn't living with his wife for a start.

She didn't know about the really scandalous affair that Lil had with the half brother of her partner did she? I'm not sure she would 've supported her then.

Tracy & Roy is wrong, because she's basically being played as being a right old slapper to be made fun of

As the other token male on these threads I agree. Tracys character is a lazy stereotype. But then TASWAMA.

The thing that is puzzling me at present is Jenny's doublethink about Lillian and Justin. Lillian is the other woman, the morally slack cow nicking someone else's husband (I think everyone knows that the 'open relationship' is just a convenient lie) and Jennifer knows what it's like to be the wife in that situation. Why is she being so supportive of 'poor Lillian'? You would at the very least expect her to be as robust as Brian - 'she knew what she was getting into."

Agreed.

And maybe it's just me but would Brian and possibly Jennifer not also be concerned that Justin is perhaps paying more for the services provided by Lilian as social secretary than they are worth?

And maybe it's just me but would Brian and possibly Jennifer not also be concerned that Justin is perhaps paying more for the services provided by Lilian as social secretary than they are worth?

Why on earth would the thought even cross their minds?