Christmas is coming, the geese are getting fat, please put a penny in Joe Grundy's hat. Discuss The Archers here.

[PseudoBadger]

Ho ho ho! Will this thread last until Christmas?

Now I didn't hear Jill's conversation as interference at all. I think I thought of it that way because I hate tinsel so if someone looked at my tree and said what it needed was bit of tinsel I'd be pretty pissed off. Actually I think they are both in the right and therefore also both in the wrong. The Christmas tree is perfect illustration to me of the problem - Ruth wants to be mistress in her own house, over her Christmas tree decorations. The trouble is she shares her house with someone who, with good reason, feels she is mistress of the house. Jill has been decorating the tree at Brookfield for years so feels she should be in charge (quite reasonable in it own way after all she doesn't have another tree decorate). I suppose I side with Ruth because I am closest to her in age and would HATE having to constantly defer to someone else in my own home (even though Jill does everything in the house and Ruth willingly invited her to move in). If Jill lived in Borchester (or even in Rickyard Cottage instead of Pip) the problem wouldn't arise - each would have their own tree. If anyone tried to make my children feel unwelcome in my house for Christmas I would react in exactly the same way Ruth is reacting with Jill. Her point about having no other family is entirely valid - if Jill doesn't like it she has three other children she could spend Christmas with.

Having no one else didn't seem to bother Ruth last year

This all highlights that Jill isn't an equal member of the family. She is there under sufferance and it must be horrible to feel like that. She doesn't really have a home

Jill does have a home. Glebe Cottage, is it? Rented out to Carol who manages to live perfectly well on her own. Jill's problem is that she cannot cope with her own life, she's not happy unless she is being someone's doormat.

But they begged Jill to come back. And now they're treating her like shit on their shoes.

I've always rather liked Ruth (I know - not popular!) but in the last year or so, I've increasing grown to dislike her. She's a huge narcissist. She's Kate but with fewer pretensions

But Jill didn't try to make Pip feel unwelcome. Sure, she made her boyfriend feel unwelcome, but then who would seriously want Toby in their house on Christmas Day or indeed any other? I'd have major trouble being polite to him if I were in David or Ruth's shoes.

That's why she should go to LL R4. Elizabeth is much nicer than Ruth (on the whole).

She's Kate but with fewer pretensions

And none of the comedy value.

But, as I said earlier, Ruth is allowed to change her mind. I think she is also trying to make amends I can't see what Jill really likes about the Brookfield house. it's likely to be big and draughty, lots of places for cobwebs to gather (she must be busy with her feather duster at regular intervals), Phil's not there, Carol's got work on Radio 4 (I heard her on Saturday!), the living Archers don't seem pleased to see her (except Ben of course but that's because he likes eating, as teenage boys do). Maybe she should move elsewhere. It must be just the house she likes as the people are all horrid. She could go to the stables (Dan's room is free), LL (big choice of rooms), the Bull (sleep amongst the boxes of crisps now that Adam's back with Ian), or move in with Carol. Or is Anna there?

I don't think anyone has picked up yet on the storyline that's irritating me most at the moment and that's the developing romance between Lizzie and Doc Locke. She's started to simper and giggle when anyone says he fancies her and they're clearly destined to find luurrve, but does anyone find this at all plausible? All he seems to be is a badly acted regional accent. You can so hear him reading his lines and he has zero personality. I always picture him in a shabby tweed jacket and baggy trousers, with an unkempt moustache, and I can't see for the life of me why Lizzie would be attracted to him. But Lillian said today that he was "charming and funny". Has anyone heard any evidence of this at all? Does he manifest these qualities in ways that just don't come across on radio? Raising a sardonic eyebrow? Doing hilarious mimes? (honestly you'd really believe he was stuck in a glass box - we roared! )? I just don't get it at all.

Ifti now - he was dashing....

Lizzie gave Dr Locke quite the brush off over the car shopping trip, I hope he's found someone else to lust over.
I'm definitely with Ruth on the tinsel - I'd go mad if Jill tried putting her crappy old tinsel on my tree, yuck! And do they really have an angel that's, what, 50-odd years old? No way that's still going!

I dislike Rooooth intensely and I agree she is being hypocritical making such a big deal of being with her kids this Christmas when she didn't give two hoots last year when she was in New Zealand......but...........

I think she is right about trying to tolerate Toe-beeee up to a point. However much of a plonker he is and however much the family dislike him and want it to be over, as it stands he is Pip's boyfriend and if they can't at least be civil to him they will alienate her, and she's so contrary that it'll make her stay with him longer than she should. She speaks and behaves with the emotional maturity of a teenager, but she's in her twenties - at this point any long term partner may be "the one" - the man she marries, has kids with etc. By being so foul to him now they are setting themselves up for a long term family rift with her and poor relationships with her children - all this could effect the future of the farm and how they hand it down.

Rooooooth's a pain, but she can see all that and wants to prevent it - she's just probably going too far the other way.

Jill needs to but out. She can be a martyr in the kitchen if she wants and she's entitled to an opinion, but no adult grandchild needs to be spoken to about their choice of partner the way Jill did to Pip.

Pip's entitled to her choices and she's entitled to make bad choices, all anyone else can do is watch, and be there for her when Toe-beeeee inevitably disappears off to Brighton, most likely when she's doing the Christmas Day milking.

I have a ticket for Lincoln. Although I also have non-MN contacts there.

I quite like Dr Locke, always have done, despite his dubious professional ethics and marital morals. So now nobody will speak to me at Lincoln.

Plus Ruth was in a Pip-like strop last year and couldn't be bothered about seeing any of her family. It is for this precise reason that she wants to avoid a similar scenario this year. Also Ruth's strop was very much tied up with the death of her mother and feeling David an Pip were taking decision about the farm in her absence. Pip's strop is that Jill has basically made her feel unwelcome if she's with Toby - in fact it is Jill's strop rather than Pip's. I do think Jill could ease the tension by spending Christmas with one of her other children and I think the real Jill would have done this. Instead she is being portrayed as someone behaving unreasonably (AIBU - my MIL lives with us and she has banned my DD from coming home with her boyfriend for Christmas). We all know Jill is right about Toby, but does any of us think her approach is improving the situation?

Di hadn't thought of that but yes, the old Jill would have taken herself away for Christmas to Liz or somewhere.

Cinder-Jilla
Yes, C-J should decamp to The Bull for Christmas (apparently the food is good) and leave ungrateful Rooof to cook her own Christmas dinner for once. I bet Heatherpet would have been treated as an honoured guest, not as an unpaid skivvy like poor taken for granted Jill. Getonmypip is a thoroughly spoilt brat but should be left alone to make her own mistakes re. relationships. The scales will fall from her eyes soon enough.

What struck me today is this is Ruth's first Christmas at Brookfield without her Mum. And I'm sure Heather often came down for Christmas?
Last year she was in New Zealand and everything was so different that she avoided the problem. This year she is still grieving/missing her Mum, everyone is acting as though she has "got over it". And she managed not to snap at Jill about the"Angel" (which I probably would have).
Ruth probably wants to have her family around and to reminisce, but now it's going to be about Pip (not being there will focus the mind far more, than if her and Toby were quietly tolerated for the day).

AIBU - my MIL lives with us and she has banned my DD from coming home with her boyfriend for Christmas

I am disappointed to realise this isn't a parallel issue in your own life.

I think the conversation in the pub with all the husbands about their in-laws and families will have done more to get rid of Toby than any amount of David Archer glowering. Toby doesn't see himself as a husband. That and all the talk about 'next Christmas'

I'm afraid that I'm having trouble getting wound up about the Pip'n'Toebee situation. It is back to plot-driven story lines, ignoring past histories, inconsistencies and people acting out of character. It doesn't ring true to me. Oh, and it's delivered by a not-very-good actress to boot.

Jill has many houses but no home

None of the defenders of Ruth have convinced me that she is in the right! Not saying Jill is but Ruth's behaviour is bratty and spoilt. It's like an aibu where everyone fawns over her 'you're the mum it's your choice ' etc etc. But op has failed to mention the fact grandma keeps the house running and actually does all the cooking

As for a boyfriend of three months having to be there for Xmas when he has a family of his own? Weird. Especially one who shows so little concern for his own family members.

Xpost r4 - agree. The characters have gone haywire on this. That's what's irritating!

I'm sure daisy badger is a very good screen or stage actress but I wish they would put her out of her misery and replace her as pip. She's given it a good go but she's not a natural radio actress

Yup - Pip's comment that Rex is doing the parent thing - like a duty which can be left to the losers.