Legalities when builders/architects mess up - where do I stand?

[PavlovtheForgetfulCat]

Ok, as always in my life, its long and complicated so i will give you the bare facts and can fill in any details you need as we go along.

Loft conversion. Involves removing wall of small bedroom and putting back a little, moving the door from right to left, and stairs to go in space created (half in, half in space already there). bedroom small, approx 8.5ft x 5ft. To lose around 1.5ft.

Architect/structural engineer did drawings. assured us when he suggested moving the wall for the stairs that it would be big enough for a standard sized single bed. He stipulated in writing that the internal structure was to be altered ensuring it would be large enough for single bed - this was stipulated on the plans, in black and white.

Anyway, builder had some issues with the stairs, including width of stairs being questioned by stair company and needing changing. Builder assured me it would have no inpact on the size of the bedroom, so I let him get on with sorting the stairs.

Stud wall just been put in. The room is really small. It is 6ft, and therefore it is now not big enough to put a single bed in at all. I think I can see where the problem is. The stairs are 800mm wide, should have been 600mm from what I recall, although the architect did not specify width. This has added 200mm to the top and the bottom of the stairs, which in total is 400mm, which is about how much the room is reduced too much by. Does not sound a lot, but its made a difference between a usable single room and a cupboard.

So, I do not at this stage know if its the architect, the builder, the stair company.

How do I proceed? The inspector has just signed the stairs off today, and the stud wall was then put in, while I was at work, so I did not know until I got home. I probably should have measured the room but presumed the builder knew what he was doing .

well done for being a fab tag team, I really do think it will be sorted because he clearly cares about his reputation and perhaps doesnt have much work lined up.

Wow - what a turn-around! Oh, I'm so pleased that it's moving forward again for you.

What was the builder thinking? Ploughing on all that time knowing it was wrong? Anyway - you now know you and your DH are a formidable good cop/bad cop team! Fingers crossed it all goes well from here and we'll expect to hear news that it's all finished and sparkly very soon

He is financially in difficulties.

He has asked for an advance on some of the retainer. He has not 'said' he he will just wind up his business if we don't but that is what DH has taken from that. He wants £1k to pay for the stairs and more materials as he has to rip stuff out. Obviously he is not asking for more money from us, but that we release some of the final payment early. He did not so much ask, as tell us he 'needs' i am taking it as his builder way.

Now, on one hand, I am saying 'no way' he is not getting another penny from us until this is sorted, until this is finished. What if he takes the grand and runs anyway?

But DH said while he agrees it is not ideal, if he goes bust, we won't get our work done. He said we have trusted him to the tune of thousands already, we should trust him this bit more as the alternative is he winds his business up and we will have to go through small claims for it, and might not get it all/any back from him.

I feel nervous and cautious still, I am yet to discuss the fact that the building inspectors now need to revisit, as it was a pain last time, he does not get on with the inspector at all.

As far as the changes are concerned, he is doing it, but is making it clear he is not happy about it! He has made it clear it is not his fault, he will take the blame for the physical work being done wrong, but he is very keen to apportion blame on the door of the architect, his drawings were wrong, not clear, and they have apparently had a huge bust-up over it .

The lads, his workers, are really demoralised about it, the atmosphere is horrid to be honest, they are not rude or anything, but they are avoiding us really and we are doing the same, well not avoiding, but sort of tiptoeing around.

The floor has been undone and will be dropped tomorrow, they will hopefully be at the stage of re-laying the boards over the floor again on friday.

Oh No - from following this thread I thought there had been a reasonably happy ending.

My husband is a builder and what he would so is provide a valuation on a monthly or two weekly basis depending on how big the job is. Could he not do a financial costing of works but only equalling upto the outstanding amount you owe from the original job. (So put a nominal sum for all the individual elements rather than the actual cost.) Then on a weekly basis you can assess what has been done and pay him the valuation of those works. This should then encourage him to work as quickly as possible and you will only pay for works done. Not sure if that makes sense?!?

KC3 - we are not paying him any extra for the work. His mistake, he is footing the bill for putting it right. But he is saying he is broke. I am guessing he was probably going to ask for this advance regardless of the recent events but the timings of it all clashed.

We had payed him the two relatively large installments we agreed at the beginning of the work starting, one at the start, one mid way, and then we have the final amount which is due once we have the building control certificate in our hands and are happy with it all. It is from this final installment he wants the additional £1k.

I think it will be a happy ending in that soon enough he will be gone and we will be able to close the door on him and be happy with what we are left with. I just think the next 3.5 weeks are going to be gruelling to bear.

I understand there is no way it will cost you more but if it would make the atmosphere easier over the next three weeks then perhaps stagger the final retainer payment as the work is completed,rather than one lump sum at the end.

As you say a happy ending is in site and its a good job you were on the ball and spotted this when you did.

kc oh I see what you mean. We have, as in DH and I, agreed that we will give him £500 on friday and then £500 the following week. Then, he proposes we finish, if we are still on schedule once this mess up is rectified, two weeks following that. I definitely want a retainer of some kind kept as I want to make sure he does good on all the finishing touches, such as repairing the damaged ceilings and walls. I don't want it to be that the inspector arrives and he then says there you go done and leaves. I am sure he won't, but I just have decided we have been far too trusting.

People have said he obviously cares about his reputation. I am not so sure. If so, why did he try to cover it in he first place, despite DH saying on numerous occasions the floor looked wrong, it looked too high. He knew all along it was wrong, and he should have realised we would figure it out, that the stairs would end up in the wrong place and then the bedroom and he could not maintain the blag. So, I am now proceeding with caution.

I also don't feel pleased we spotted it when we did. I am actually kicking myself for not pushing it further when we first felt it was not right, rather than trusting his responses. We should have got the architect involved then to clarify it all and get him to change it. It would have involved significantly less reparation work.

Well don't kick yourself too hard because it is so difficult to tell what you are looking at if it's not your area. I wouldn't have a clue and my husband talks building all the time!

Paying the 1000 in two installments is a good idea and knowing he will be finished in 3.5 weeks is good he must be looking to crack on with it.

On another note, I think your architect has been less than supportive of yourselves especially as he knew of the floor problem, with his expertise he should of realised the knock on effect it would have.

I agree with you about the architect. I don't know why he did not discuss this with us, and let us know the implications. I think the builder and he (they have worked together before) have some kind of understanding where, unless the customer complains they just get on with their respective bits, ie architect does his drawings and buggers off unless there is building control complications!!! I guess we should see that as a good sign that they have had a bust up, in that they have worked together for years and this has not happened before. I shall tell myself that!

I have learnt a lot. DH said initially, no more conversions, and I said we should not let it stop us, we can use this to get it right next time, for example I will ensure at the beginning that we all arrange - the builder, the architect, and us to meet every 2-3 weeks or so to assess and confirm progress is going well and to plan, and sort out any hitches.

Definitely arrange progress meetings with architect and builder on a fortnightly basis. It's always trial and error what works for you but you've obviously got a good eye to notice the problem early on.

Also I would always advise against giving a builder any money upfront. I know the argument that there are materials to buy etc but these can be bought from merchants that builders have accounts with so they would have 30 days grace anyway. On large jobs my husband does monthly valuations of completed works. On smaller jobs he would arrange a works programme and payment schedule so 64k job over 16 weeks equals 8k a fortnight as long as project is meeting programme.

Another thing you said that I would be suspicious about is that the builder didn't get on with the Building Inspector. Building Regs. are a pain and like somebosy said there are so many that are not relevant but as a builder you have to meet them end of story. If he is a local builder it is in his best interests to have a good relationship with the BI's.

That should be somebody not somebosy!!!

I'm so glad it looks as though it's going to be a happy ending - eventually.

One thing I've learnt from your tail though is that it's absolutely fine to check up on the builders and ask questions if anything doesn't look quite right.

Mid-build we've changed the location of one of our internal walls on the first floor of the extension. It was all agreed with the builder but yesterday I had a look at the joists and I'm pretty sure they've put them in the wrong place because fo the change in plans - I will definitely be making sur ethis is sorted to my satisfaction before we go any further.

Sorry, I meant tale obviously! I'm sure you're not a furry creature!

I am writing this from a friend's house. I am 'evacuated' by my DH so I do not see what is happening to my home .

Builder insists it is standard, perhaps those with DHs as builders can clarify, but they have put steel supports in our front room, right slap bang in there, and also in the bedroom to HOLD OUR CEILING UP . He failed to mention this minor detail this morning over a cup of tea.

This means either a) he did not want our wrath or b) he did not know, which makes me fearful of whether he has cut through something integral (or one of his boys has). He explained to DH it was necessary as the frame which the floor was supported off is now cut away, and they are having to redo this frame (or something) under the floor, and in the meantime the floor is resting on the ceiling. It was not apparantly necessary before, as the floor was built onto this frame. Something like that.

I am calling the architect tomorrow morning and asking the builder when the inspector is coming to re-assess and approve the new changes. I suspect the builder is hoping not to do that all but I do not think so, we will be getting the inspector in once the floor is in, before any more work is done.

DH has not even allowed me in the place to get anything. He says i will be upset at what I see, but that half the floor of the loft has been lowered, and even 8inches (not 5. 8). makes an emormous difference but better. He is staying there tonight to see the builders first thing.

I think he is keeping me away from them not from the mess [hmm}.

Just when I thought I could not get any worse.

Husband not here to ask but he is absolutely doing the right thing by using the support if he even thinks it needs it.

I know at this time it is hard to see the positives but he is obviously not trying to cut corners when rectifying his mistake. Definitely make sure BI is aware of changes and is reinspecting asap.

In internal building jobs there are normally a couple of traumatic days - I've been bought to ranting and tears on numerous occasions - but then it moves on quickly.

Hold on in there!

.

I have just had a huge barny with DH. He does not want the building inspector out either . The floor has already been signed off, does not need to be done again. He is happy for the structural engineer to come and tell us its fine, and if he is happy, then DH is happy. I have told him that this floor has not been signed off. The old floor has, this is different the floor has been structrally altered and will not be legal. He said of course it will be legal.

I told him I could not beleive he would compromise the safety of our family to please the builder, or to save time or stop the inspector saying it is wrong, he says I am being melodramatic and overwrought, and that the structural engineer is qualified to assess the safety of the structure, and that the floor is fine.

He got really quite angry at me.

I am not really questioning the use of support structures, but I am questioning the reason, and why we were not told, i am so suspicious now its untrue. All because he tried to cover it up, it means I do not trust him. I know I should but his attempt to keep this from us in the first place means I am wary.

I mean, why did he not tell us? Why did he not call? when was he going to tell us? I was at work and DH popped back home after going out with DD for the day, to get her swimming stuff, and happened to find them putting them in. They have been in our bedroom, moving our things about.

And breathe...
He should have explained what he was going to do but he is probably so cheesed off with the whole thing and afraid to speak to you that he's not sayng anything.
Better that he goes into your bedroom and moves things than lets the ceiling fall down. I'd rather he caught a look a my smalls than have my house come down.

Nosey But he can't be afraid to talk to us. He just cannot. he has to keep us informed. And I have, to be fair, not lost my rag with him at all. I have done it out of his way, and while he knows how furious we have been, DH has done nothing but be nice to him, in order that he continues to work hard to give us what we want. DH has been honest but respectful in his manner, and I have kept myself out of the way in order not to explode with rage and frustration.

I would serve him right if I had some dirty smalls on the floor though eh?

I just worry now that he has cut through some major structural support up top.

I have woken up to a gorgeous view at my friend's house. She lives in the countryside and its not bad at all! Better than chaos at least.

I feel so much for you. Sounds like a complete nightmare. At least you have kept hold of the builder. I'm with you about signing off the floor though, this new floor needs signing off.

I remember my parents having a similar problem as you. The whole extension was designed to ensure their HUGH wardrobe would fit in the bedroom. The door had to be in exactly the right place which meant the stairs had to be in exactly the right place. When they got to putting the door in they couldn't get it in the right place by just 5cm because the stairs were 5cm out. This meant the wardrobe wouldn't fit. My Dad made the builder pull the lot down and start again exactly like you have. Ultimatly the builder hasn't followed what was on the plans and the plans were like that for a reason.

I hope that you have a better day today.

rebl and that 5cm makes the difference doesn't it? the builder said 'its only going to give you 8inches max, hardly anything, you won't even notice it, you will just know its been done' but 8inches is a lot. We are not talking about high ceilings, we are talking about a loft conversion with a relatively low ceiling as it is, so 8inches, is significant to us, and 8 inches on a single room makes a difference between it being a room and harry potter cupboard! And DH said that the half of the floor that has already been dropped, that already looks much lower and at the level he had expected in the first place, so it does notice.

DH is waiting for the builders to arrive. He is not anticipating any dramas as such, he just wants his presence (and perhaps my lack of presence?!) noted! He also wants to do some tidying before I get back, and sort out some washing. He is being just the best at the moment, I have moaned about him recently for being a bit selfish, but he has proven himself over this without a doubt. This is clearly stressed too, but is taking on the dealing of stuff so I can try to keep calm.

Blimey pavlov what a stressful situation.

8 inches IS a lot! But I'm totally with you on getting the inspector back. Just asked DP (builder) who has shot out now and he said if you've ripped it out and started again then it's a different floor and he wouldn't be happy to carrying on without it being signed off. Plus, its steel beams - the inspector is meant to check that they too are held up with enough support. I think you're right on that one.

Good to hear your DP is there though and you're taking in the country air!

This is how 'good cop/bad cop' we are - DH is making the builders their usual friday 10am bacon and sausage sarnies. He does this every friday, they stop for a cup of tea and a sarnie for half hour then get on with their work.

He said 'a healthy ship is a happy ship' He is thinking he wants to keep them sweet regardless of what has happened. he is soooo much nicer than I am.

I think your DP's right - a happy ship is a healthy ship!