Legalities when builders/architects mess up - where do I stand?

[PavlovtheForgetfulCat]

Ok, as always in my life, its long and complicated so i will give you the bare facts and can fill in any details you need as we go along.

Loft conversion. Involves removing wall of small bedroom and putting back a little, moving the door from right to left, and stairs to go in space created (half in, half in space already there). bedroom small, approx 8.5ft x 5ft. To lose around 1.5ft.

Architect/structural engineer did drawings. assured us when he suggested moving the wall for the stairs that it would be big enough for a standard sized single bed. He stipulated in writing that the internal structure was to be altered ensuring it would be large enough for single bed - this was stipulated on the plans, in black and white.

Anyway, builder had some issues with the stairs, including width of stairs being questioned by stair company and needing changing. Builder assured me it would have no inpact on the size of the bedroom, so I let him get on with sorting the stairs.

Stud wall just been put in. The room is really small. It is 6ft, and therefore it is now not big enough to put a single bed in at all. I think I can see where the problem is. The stairs are 800mm wide, should have been 600mm from what I recall, although the architect did not specify width. This has added 200mm to the top and the bottom of the stairs, which in total is 400mm, which is about how much the room is reduced too much by. Does not sound a lot, but its made a difference between a usable single room and a cupboard.

So, I do not at this stage know if its the architect, the builder, the stair company.

How do I proceed? The inspector has just signed the stairs off today, and the stud wall was then put in, while I was at work, so I did not know until I got home. I probably should have measured the room but presumed the builder knew what he was doing .

cargirl - so, what if he refuses to do it? What if he downs tools? that is what worries me I think, along with the permanence of a shitty builder 'living' with us while this continues for ever.

I totally know what you mean Pavlov. We went with a really cheap builder in the end and part of me still expects it all to go tits up, but he came with such excellent references and so far (touching wood madly) everything seems fine. I know the plans back to front though and go round obsessively measuring everything after they get to each stage

Look, it will be fine. In some ways it doesn't matter who fucked up, the builder or the architect because you were getting a package deal with the pair of them. I personally wouldn't get bogged down in the details of how and why it went wrong, just make sure they know that you are not going to be satisfied with anything less than what the plans stated. They can argue between themselves about who's going to pick up the tab.

Do you have any legal expenses cover on your house insurance? Might be worth giving them a ring for some advice if so.

Daisy - that is a good idea actually. yes we do. and with our car insurance, and also at work our union offer legal services for members. So I have legal advice options coming out of my ears .

You are right, its not for us to worry how this gets fixed, its for them to sort out.

I guess worse case scenario he downs tools and you sue him - after all that is why he is insured!

I would agree about checking to see if you have any free legal cover with your house insurance.

Dp is a builder (a very respectable one with such a good reputation that he has a waiting list, btw)

I have been reading your thread out to him for his suggestions to try and alleviate your stress and stop you going round to kill anyone in the morning.

He says building regs min width for steps is 800mm. So any narrower than that won't comply with building regs and won't be signed off...

I might have got it wrong about the loft floor - as I understand it, you wanted the loft floor 15 inches below the existing bedroom ceilings but its now only 12" below which has made the loft smaller? There are minimum heights for room ceilings to comply with building regs. Also dp (he has done loft conversions at two houses we've had inc this one) says you need to take into account that a loft floor isn't resting on just the old bedroom ceiling timbers which are not made to take weight. So the builders will have put proper thick joists in which are now sandwiched between the loft floor and the bedroom ceilings. This will take out some of the total height of the gap between bedroom floors and roof iyswim and may make it look like ceiling is lower than you were expecting or a loft floor higher.

Sorry if I'm not being clear, ask me anything else you want before we go to bed in a bit!

I am NOT taking the side of your builder, just trying to offer explanations as to why something might have ended up like it is?

btw don't have the builder do the extra work if you are about to go into dispute with him. Leave it till the dust settles (pardon the pun) then get a separate joiner to do that for you.

cargirl - so if we sue him, we sue him via his insurance company? I did not know how that would work. Oh god, I really hope it does not come to that

DH said what if he does a runner and I said he would not surely as our retainer is his profit margin, and he will not be getting that money until the building regs certificate is in our hands so we do have some power. But I worry that he might.

This is more stressful than having a baby, or getting married

I agree with Cargirl it's an abosolute nightmare to have this ripped out and started again but if you rule this out you may end up with two substandard rooms.

I am amazed the builder has been aware of the problem for so long yet continued to work. If he downs tools then he loses all credibility and puts his reputation at risk. He should actually want to sort this problem out as much as you do. How have you paid him?

okay well from Flibberty has said kind of makes me come back to my original concerns.

Has your architect actually drawn plans that complied to the CURRENT building regs in the first place? YOu need to be 100% sure of the current building regs to have a meeting with both of them to ascertain what has gone wrong.

If the stairs have to be 800 then the architect made a mistake telling you/drawing them at 600 didn't he.

If the architect has not allowed sufficient space for the builder to put in the depth of joists and floors required then he has made the mistake.

Does that make sense.

Sorry I don't have any legal knowledge I just know that we had to settle for a loft room as we didn't have the head height for a loft conversion. All the companies told us that the building regs are a nightmare and they change very frequently.

flibberty - no I appreciate the different perspective. What I don't understand is, if it is not the 800mm width stairs that have screwed up the size of the room, if this is indeed correct, then what it is that has gone wrong? I cannot figure it out, and the builder will not let on. The plans show that just under half the the first bottom step of the stairs cut into the old small room, but in fact all the first steps up to the winder are in what was the small bedroom. (I also thought that for single room loft conversions 600mm would be acceptable?)

The structural architect had estimated that with the steels in and the new floor beams, the additional height above the original ceiling would be 8inches. But it is 15inches higher. He said in the conversation today (on the phone this evening) that the builder took the floor higher than it needed to be. The structural engineer (also our architect) had estimated the stairs based on the figures he gave, and said if anything there would be less risers, rather than more, as the builders often find the floors com in less than planned. But in fact, the builder has built the floor 7 inches higher (might not sound a lot, but all around, its significant).

cargirl - the 600mm I got from a conversation with building control just before we approved the plans. The architect did not in fact specify the width of stairs, but said this is what they would be as did the builder.

The floor joists are demonstrated in the plans. The architect has done cross reference drawings showing top down aspect, side aspect, cut through aspect, and states where there need to be beams, what size, joists, what size, steel beams, size etc. But, the truth will out tomorrow. I might just let them meet and go out - tell them I want a plan in place when I return!

I guess you need to take up the floor to see what the builder has done, in the presence of the builder and architect.

Have the stair width regs changed at all very recently?

Haave the stairs been put in at the correct angle?

cargirl - building regs are indeed a nightmare, and many aspects of them are pointless!

er pav, what exactly is a 'structural' architect?

architect is a protected title and those doing it need to be registered with the ARB (architects registration board).

I find it difficult to believe that someone is a fully qualified architect AND a structural engineer.

Has he put the stairs in upside down

...and sorry to hear you're having a shitty time.

Muchly sympathies - what an awful thing to have happened.

Now, this won't be fully appropriate for this situation, but it worked for me on a much smaller issue on a current building project we've got on, and may be of some help.

I work in an area connected with change management in my day job, and one of our mantras is that when you have a problem that needs fixing and two or more conflicting stakeholder groups (i.e. the architect, the builder and building regs in this case), you don't spend time talking about who got things to this point, because this just gets everyone saying "it was them because they're useless idiots", and this wastes time and makes everyone angry.

Instead, you move straight on to agreeing what the ideal solution would be (i.e. you have two usable bedrooms), and then you discuss about how you are all going to get there from the current point.

This won't work fully as you need to know who is going to pay for the work, but it may help to work out what actually needs doing, and then you can go back to argueing about which useless idiot needs to pay.

upside down? like this?

stairs appear at the correct angle, and stair widths do not appear to have changed as far as I can find out, but I will talk to building control at work tomorrow in the absence of the builder and get some up to date advice.

Thanks everyone for your support and advice and different perspectives, it has helped me feel a bit more together about it all, I am pleased as it means I will be more in control about how I will be tomorrow. You know, got my thoughts out and aired a bit. I don't want to be a ranty pregnant woman tomorrow. I want to be someone who is clear and coherant, albeit pissed off, about what the issues are and what I want done about it.

DB here btw.

LOL platesmasher!

I have no idea what a structural architect is, only that he is a qualified architect, and a structural engineer. He is semi-retired now so been in it long enough to get qualified in both, and his business is 'xxx structural architects' his drawings are structural in their design as opposed to predominantly architectural, ie they are to scale.

Cargirl - you know you just said that right. Well. The thing is. I noticed this yesterday and it just bypassed my registration as it would have been to stupid to comtemplate. But...the label of the stair company is upside down You don't recon it could be that simple?

Are their 2 turns on the stairs?

yes, there is a step, then a winder then steps up on the bottom. And up top there is a winder then 4 steps (with the landing as step 4) and should have been 3. The labels are wrong way up, and some calculations written on one step (on the underneath of it all) up to the top winder, then the labels on the top risers are the correct way around.

oh he must have put them in the right way around as here are more steps at the top than the bottom, it would have been short at top if upside down.

I like Escher btw! Got a picture of his in our bedroom down here. Oh, how ironic is that?!!

Oh and there is no problem about who is paying for this in my eyes, but they might argue about it grendelsmum! I know, for a fact, that as this is nowt to do with us, we are not paying to rectify it.