Legalities when builders/architects mess up - where do I stand?

[PavlovtheForgetfulCat]

Ok, as always in my life, its long and complicated so i will give you the bare facts and can fill in any details you need as we go along.

Loft conversion. Involves removing wall of small bedroom and putting back a little, moving the door from right to left, and stairs to go in space created (half in, half in space already there). bedroom small, approx 8.5ft x 5ft. To lose around 1.5ft.

Architect/structural engineer did drawings. assured us when he suggested moving the wall for the stairs that it would be big enough for a standard sized single bed. He stipulated in writing that the internal structure was to be altered ensuring it would be large enough for single bed - this was stipulated on the plans, in black and white.

Anyway, builder had some issues with the stairs, including width of stairs being questioned by stair company and needing changing. Builder assured me it would have no inpact on the size of the bedroom, so I let him get on with sorting the stairs.

Stud wall just been put in. The room is really small. It is 6ft, and therefore it is now not big enough to put a single bed in at all. I think I can see where the problem is. The stairs are 800mm wide, should have been 600mm from what I recall, although the architect did not specify width. This has added 200mm to the top and the bottom of the stairs, which in total is 400mm, which is about how much the room is reduced too much by. Does not sound a lot, but its made a difference between a usable single room and a cupboard.

So, I do not at this stage know if its the architect, the builder, the stair company.

How do I proceed? The inspector has just signed the stairs off today, and the stud wall was then put in, while I was at work, so I did not know until I got home. I probably should have measured the room but presumed the builder knew what he was doing .

OK, I am going to bed and try to get some sleep. The builders will be here tomorrow at 7:45am and I want to be dressed and ready to vacate once I have had my words with them!

I presume there's no chance the escher drawings got mixed up with the builders drawings?

this will get fixed pav, not tonight, but it will. get some sleep.

thanks, I hope so. I hope it does not end in tears (more tears).

Night all. I will keep you posted on events.

( i should show them the escher drawings and say 'but this is what we wanted' )

good night pav x

Just wanted to say - how awful. Hope you get some answers today.

Like flibbertyjibbet my DP is a builder (also with waiting list!!) and he also said he thought 800mm was the build reg requirement. He's also never heard of an architect with that title - and very unusual that the two jobs would be covered by the same person. He usually draws out stair/loft conversions on a cad programme to see if everything fits first - and to make sure the calcs are correct. Have to say he did mention that 3 lots of architect's plans he got last year proved to be technically impossible .... so they do make mistakes!

Good luck - really hope you get to the bottom of it and lets hope it's something simple

Pavlov, am so sorry this is happening. Building work, even when going well, can be so stressful. DS was 6 weeks when we got our loft conversion as it was a nightmare, so can understand how upsetting it all is for you.

Am a bit unclear who asked for the drawings to be done? We had a loft conversion company and the company did the measurements and then sent them to an architect, so if they didn't work, it was their responsibility as they employed the architect.

But agree with Grendle as far as 'what's the best way forward' rather than getting bogged down in the technical arguments. I would ask them a simple question such as, 'why is the bedroom so much smaller than we wanted?' and then, 'how can we get this back on track...'

The other thing you may want to try is contacting the architects professional body. I have no idea what it's called, but they are registered and seem to recall there is a hotline for queries and disputes.

For some reason, the Scottish Executive website has all the building regs on it, which the English web site doesn't have. (I've been rooting around for building regs on roof height myself :-) )

It's this, isn't it:

"S3.4 The width of a stair, measured between handrails and clear of obstructions, must be at least 1 metre,

except -
a. the width of a private stair may reduce to at least -
i. 900mm where it is within the accessible storey, or
ii. 600mm where it serves only sanitary accommodation and/or one room, other than a living room or kitchen "

So actually 600mm is fine.

What happened Pavlov? The meeting's not still going is it? Or did you kill them both and have now had to flee the country

grendelsmum yes that is what I had thought. but hey I am not a builder/building control/architect.

Oh and his title. I made it up. Well obviously not made it up really but got it wrong. His company is structural engineering and architectural consultants. His drawings are technical drawings, and are to scale. We did this rather than a fully blown architectural drawing as the details internally were very very straightforward, no en-suite, a simple loft conversion (ha), we did not need much information.

ilovemydog - we used an independent structural engineer rather than going through a loft conversion specialist to do the lot as we felt on balance we were happy with the expertise of this builder, he has done loft conversions before (and we saw a couple, they were fine) and he has worked with this structural engineer/architect (whatever he is) before on many jobs. Also building control had stated both builder and architect had good reputations, with the structural engineer being the old chief bloke there until the last couple of years (semi-retired just does his own business from home now). He needed work and offered a good deal, and the builder did the same. He is also our agent, when dealing with the building control etc, and the builder, so it makes sense that he and the builder thrash this out, not us.

I think i know where the problem has occured, at least with the small room/stairs. The skylight above the stairs was meant to be directly above the lobby entrance. It was moved across for some reason and we had agreed it, as we did not realise it was important were it was, and it looks better were it was. But, I think that this provided the additional headheight needed for the stairs to be moved across enough for the right amount of room to be removed. because it has been moved, that headheight no longer exists and thus the stairs were put in the wrong place.

The builder did not show today, he is unwell. But his apprentice did and we chatted with him. I [blush[ burst into tears to be honest. He said that it all appeared to be done correctly and as such could not identify where the problem occured. They agreed not to work today, and he went to see the builder boss at home as he could not talk to him on the phone (not answering), explain our concerns, and get him and structural engineer to talk if they have not already. He said he could see what I meant about the skylight, it was possible (the stairs are clearly in the wrong place according to the drawings) and agreed the builder and structural engineer needed to discuss what has gone wrong and how to proceed.

Its probably for the best that the apprentice tells him they are not working today until this is resolved, as the builder can be 'emotional' shall I say. And as I am too, it might not have been pleasant.

the apprentice has returned, said the builder will be coming around at about tea time to discuss concerns with us directly, apparantly he is really not feeling too good.

However. The apprentice said they are going to take some of the tools to store in the garage, to clear some space so they can assess everything properly , just store it 'out of our way'

But this stuff has been 'in our way' for weeks and not a problem. They did not work a couple of weeks ago for a whole week due to the stairs being delayed and they left their tools there.

I am very worried they might be removing their stuff with the intention of not finishing the job .

Oh dear, that would worry me too. What proportion of the money has he had so far? If you owe him money there's a much greater incentive to finish I guess.

Right I am off to work, to get a couple of days off and sort this shit out.

I can't post any more right now. I am shaking too much.

Un-mumsnet-like

Oh Pavlov - poor you. Well, try and muster up some calm before you see him later. And keep in mind when you do talk about him - talk about the way forward....focus on what can be done to get it resolved rather than blame etc.

Good luck. Also throws in a quick not-MN-etiquette ((hug)) Pavlov too preggie to get arms all way round so it didn't really count anyway!

Have I read this too late to shout 'don't let them take their tools till you've got some answers!!!!'

Um yes I think so.

Will log back on later to see what you found out from them all.

My DH is great! So let me tell you, all story tale like what happened today. Talk about a rollercoaster or what.

OK, I confronted, for want of a better word the poor apprentice and put him on the spot, while they were doing whatever they were doing with the tools. I asked him what the purpose of taking the tools was again, got some fluff and bluster and I said 'do you know how this looks? Do you have any idea what thoughts are going through my mind right now regarding your intentions given that you have just turned up in xx's van and are clearing the tools away?' 'yes, I can see that this might not look good' 'well?' 'well what?' 'well, is it as I am thinking? Are you intending to return to this job or not?' And he stalled, and then I panicked. I did not stop him. But he knew I had fears and unfortunately for whatever reason he was not in a position to deny or admit it, as he clearly did not know what the builders intentions were. So they funnily enough made a quick exit and left much more than they obviously anticipated, seeing as they turned up in a great big van, but only took stuff to fit in a car. I think my fury and suspicion got the better of me

So, we lock the house. They have the keys, but sensible that we are, we only gave them keys for one lock and kept the mortice unlocked when they were working. So we locked the mortice which they did not have keys for!! (nor the back door). We were, perhaps a bit paranoid.

DH took me to work. I called him about 2 hours later, and the builder had arrived, without notice. He was not happy about his work being 'slagged off' and DH, on his own for once with it, was very diplomatic. He said we were not slagging of his work, but we had to have 2 working rooms, this was our life, our home and our family and we had put all our money into it, we had to have what we agreed. DH said he was not interested in going over the past, he just wanted to get it right from now on.

Then.

Get this.

The builder admitted the floor was 5inhigher than it needed to be . This threw the stairs out, as they had to be a higher tread and also the head height was wrong because of it so the stairs were put in the wrong place (he did not state this, just implied it). He did not say it was his fault. He of course blamed the architect, saying the architect had not specified to hang the floor from the bottom of the beams, or hangers or something but meant this, and the builder had hung the hangers from the middle as this is what he thought the architect meant.

Anyway, DH asked if the floor can be dropped, and he said yes, and agreed to do it. Also said he would move the stairs back across, and move the skylight back to its original position which means the stairs might even be moved across further, this will give us the space we should had not lost back, and perhaps a few more inches (but we won't get excited by that).

The reason he has agreed to do this, is he clearly does not want to deal with the architect, who called him this morning and told him what he had done wrong, and that he better rectify it, or words to that effect. Good to see who has the power in their relationship . DH said, if he thinks at all the plans are wrong we should get the architect out for a chat and the builder said, no, it will only end up being a blaming session and he does not want an argument, he will just do the changes and then move on with the work.

DH got me from work, telling the builder his next job was to put a smile on my face and that would be difficult. He did not quite manage that, but I told him if he made the changes I wanted I would be happy.

Although this is not in writing. I now realise how afraid he is of the architect and that by this in itself and his admission around the floor, he has made himself liable and the architect has a good reputation, and has made it clear he will not let it lie if not fixed. This means I have leverage. I hope.

So, this afternoon, his builder apprentice and his son spent several hours ripping out walls and pulling up the floors , they are a bit demoralised, but nought I can do about that, apart from thank them for working hard. They suggested I don't go look, as did DH!

Oh when he arrived to see DH, DH said, 'sending your boys in to get your tools was not a good idea' and the builder agreed, probably not good. When I came home from work the builder said 'did you not think we would finish the job?' and I said 'no, to be honest, when a van came to get your stuff I thought you had stuck your fingers up, I am pleased you returned and hope we can trust you, because we have put all our trust in you so far' .

Result ! Hope you now get the ocnversion you had hoped for .

DH and I agree me make a good team. I put the fear in them by behaving like a mad woman and letting them know just how bloody angry we were, but agreed it was probably a good idea I was at work when he turned up, let DH deal with it, he was the 'good cop', and the builder arrived almost ready for a fight. I think he was upset that we dissed his work and mistrusted him. DH assured him the mistrust was due to our lack of experience and the vast amount of money invested in this project and him coming around to sort it out has gone a long way to restore that faith we had in him (i would have had the fight, and might not have got a positive outcome).

LIZS - I am happier. But funnily enough, am not overjoyed. I am now cautiously optimistic, but I feel flat rather than pleased. I feel of course relieved, but no longer feel that we can take it for granted, and my eye will not be taken off the ball for a second now. I am much less blase, not that I was before. But this has been a steeeeeep learning curve for us and I not convinced we are out of the woods, just yet.

Unfortunately the damage has been done with the builder, although I feel the pleased the architect challenged his work and clearly will fight any problems.

That's great! Just shows, doesn't it - if the builder had fessed up and fixed it when he first realised there was a problem, he wouldn't now have to re-do the whole lot.

Exactly - he has said dropping the ceiling, moving the stairs and getting it all back to the point it should have been at on monday will take 1-2wks. If he had just sorted it at the time, it would have been a couple of days.

DH thinks he is struggling for cash and did not want to waste the time so to speak on changing it, and thought we would not notice. But DH has never been happy with the floor height, and he has often said it felt wrong, to me and the builder. I think because we did not question the builder's response of building regs fully he thought his blag was enough. Shame as it means he has now got to waste even longer and we trust him less now.

Sounds daft, but am pleased something was done wrong by the builder. As it means it can be rectified. If it was the architect, it might mean what he asked for was impossible and we would have to accept what we had, as there might not have been any other way to do it than the way it was done. That would have upset me more than another 2 weeks of work and a crabby builder. It also meant that our feelings of how it all looked and felt was not our imagination.

Wow -- wasn't expecting that! Would have put money on the architect getting the measurements wrong. Good thing i'm not a betting person

Absolutely agree that as far as mistakes that can be remedied, a builder's mistake is easier than an architects as they are the mind of the operation and the builder is the, um, the body?

And you're lucky that you have a builder who cares about his reputation. That's your leverage

ilovemydog - i also think he needs the money we have retained, so its in his interests not to run away!

I have to say, I was not anticipating this outcome. I was fully expecting this to go full on belly up and was about to seek some legal advice. DH asked me to hold off, although he said he knew I would do it anyway, but as it happened I was busy at work so had no time! (otherwise I would have!).

I was hoping to get it resolved, but thought it would be a lot of negotation, compromises, disputing and a bit more angst so when DH collected me and told me I almost fell over. Then when I saw the builder sat drinking tea in my kitchen waiting for me to come home and he said 'yeah, no problems, we can fix it, it will all be fixed. Will you happy if we do that?' he also said 'will you feel less hormonal now do you think? and I withheld the temptation to slap him quite hard and smiled sweetly and laughed 'hahaha' at him, while thinking we had got what we wanted do not risk losing it!