Buying a listed property that is has had non-compliant work done to it

[HouseMoveRound2]

We are in the process of buying a G2 listed property with UPVC windows that the vendor has told us we’re installed without consent. We are unlikely to get any further money knocked off the asking price - is it worth getting indemnity insurance?

Nope. There is no such thing for a listed building. If anyone reports it at any point the current owner has to put it right. I would want the cost of installing wooden single glazed windows taken off the price of the house just incase. If they wont agree to that then its up to you and i guess will depend on how much it would cost to put back if the council enforce it

Which could easily be about 20k.

As PP says, you can't get indemnity insurance on a LB.

If the Council discover the breach, and want alternative windows installed, it will be your responsibility to do so. There are massive fines and possible prison sentences for unauthorised work. And unlike breaches of planning control, there are no time limits for works to LBs.
Have any other works been undertaken?

OP wouldn’t be prosecuted but would be liable to restore.

OP, what size is the property? How many windows?

also, what else have they done that’s not legit? Windows are obvious but potentially far more to uncover.

Indemnity is not an option for you in these circumstances.

Why buy into that problem?

Sounds like a can of worms.

Google tells me I can get listed building indemnity, it protects me against having to remedy prior work but not against criminal prosecution, is this not right?

tortephant it’s a fairly big house, plenty of windows!!! I know they’ve had other stuff that they’ve had consent for as I’ve seen the listing on the LA website. It’s a 15th century cottage with an 80s extension that also forms part of the listing, but presuming the windows are only an issue in the older bit of the house as the modern extension would have had UPVC windows anyway…. Will need to get the details on the though clearly!

daisychain I guess because in every other way it’s a dream property for us, and in terms of location and amount of land it’s not something that comes up often, so want to see what our options are to figure out if it’s worth it

It would be worth checking the terms of the listed building indemnity insurance. If you already know that there are works which do not have listed building consent, and those are as obvious as windows, those may be a policy exclusion. It’s more likely to insure against lack of permission which can’t easily be discovered.

Yes I definitely need to look into it more, it does seem too good to be true if it covers against remedying known non-compliant work, as surely that wouldn’t make financial sense for the insurer.

Google is not correct. Otherwise people could just do whatever they like to a listed building and then sell the house and there would be no way for the council to make anyone restore the building to how it was before it was damaged. There is a case of a pub in london which was knocked down by a developer and the council made them rebuild the whole thing as it was using reclaimed or specially remanafactured materials. It cost them a fortune.

You cant get liability insurance because the council can enforce replacement at any time as soon as they notice or are told. They often notice when someone puts a listed building up for sale and it has an obvious change like upvc windows so they could be knocking soon.

Ok. I have googled and it does look like there is such a thing. That is bonkers. I wonder how much it costs ans how often they have to pay out.

yes I’m wondering the same to be honest geneticsbunny as surely they’d be paying out pretty frequently!

once I’ve looked into it in greater depth than just making a mumsnet thread I will report back!

It's certainly not something I've come across in 35 years of planning! I think it must be fairly new, but as you say, goodness knows how much it would cost. The costs involved in fighting enforcement action and/or having to actually remedy the breach of LBC can be massive!
Insurance cover aside, the work would still have to be done - along with all the stress and disruption. Not sure it is something I would want to chance.

I would not bother with insurance but would take into account cost of changing it from uPVC. If you have a heritage surveyor maybe ask their advice re value and cost. It maybe all the windows, especially any visible from street, it varies.

There is a Listed Properties Association as well you can join and they have an advice line. In our area due to the lack of staff there's almost no enforcement but it's whether it causes it to be unsellable though uPVC windows on traditional part is quite a big breach. The council here tend to be quite reasonable as well as long as people are reasonable back, they don't fine if people offer to sort it especially if not them who did the damage and give people opportunity to put it right. Though obviously windows for a house will be pricey so you would need that available in savings.

You can get such a thing but I wonder how much it’d cost / whether you’d have to pay annual renewals. The council can come at anytime in the future and most insurers would not want an open ended potential liability on their books in perpetuity.

It’s worth checking when the listing was put in place. We had been in our house ten years before the listing was made, and most of us had upvc windows and extensions by then, and some had changed their front door. We double-checked with the planning department, and were told things could stay as they were, that there be no retrospective orders, but to do nothing in future without applying for planning permission.

*User122333 *it was listed in ‘84, and re the windows the Heritage England listing just says ‘C20 casements’, which seems pretty vague as surely this could include uPVC windows? I know the vendors updated them without consent as they told us, but from the listing doesn’t sound like it’s possible to gauge what the specifics of the windows were before?

It might be worth talking to a heritage consultant. Ours was invaluable about that kind of thing.

uPVC windows were rare in 1984 so don’t rely on that.

you could be enforced against to replace them. I would walk away from this one other than with a hefty discount.

We bought a listed period house with interior walls knocked though and an extension. Neither had consent and they'd been done prior to the seller owning.

We contacted the local planning authority whilst purchasing and explained. They can around and approved the work. But ours was internal, and the exterior was listed (luckily not the back!). You could do the same and if they say you need new windows then knock it off the value.

Insurance will not avoid the need for the work if it'd deemed to be needed

You need to ask the local conservation officer if the windows are likely to get approval. Ask for a response in writing
If they say yes ask the owners to submit an application
If no get prices for replacing them and take that off the offer

Whatever was there in 1984, when it was listed, is part of the listing

@likelysuspect They might need to be bespoke. In that case, £20,000 is very off target if there’s lots of windows. The owner has utterly taken the p—- by doing this and had scant regard for the building. The fact no one has noticed is incredible! What else have they done without listed building consent! Probably more.

Its the whole property that's listed not just what's in the listing though they are stricter with visible from street parts / original part of house. Its very hard to get hold of a conservation officer here - we can apply for a free 15 minutes per project as owners but it takes a few weeks. I don't think there's any chance they would accept upvc windows here, its a pretty big breach, each property is done individually though.

I think there is a good chance you will be ok OP. These are my reasons:

They have been there a long time and no one has complained.

Enforcement if it were to be considered has to be proportional and justified. If the breach is long standing, not hidden, and not undertaken by you there is a reasonably high probability that it would not meet the LPA's threshold for enforcement.

Finally and most importantly the onus is on the local planning authority to prove breach. Your listing says 20th century windows. This means the windows at the time of listing were not themselves original.

This is important for two reasons. First it is relevant to any decision to enforce (they can't make you do anything more than replace what was there before - and they may have been hideous prior replacements).

Second and more important it would be open to you to say that as far as you are concerned the current windows are the windows that were present at the time of listing. The burden of proof is on the council here. So you would be saying that there is no breach.

The council in my opinion are not going to spend a lot of time and trouble on some historic forensic exercise to find out what the windows actually looked like at the time of listing and try to force you to reinstall them.

So I reckon that, while no lawyer will give you a clean opinion on this, in practice I don't think you have too much to worry about.

I agree with Katesixer. If you google LA and enforcement of listed buildings, there is a lot about the process councils must follow re enforcement, I'm not sure they'd bother. And if you don't tell them they likely won't even know. They're like vampires though, do NOT invite them in. I know someone who did and regretted it thousands of pounds later.