Buying a house with an occasional room and no BR

[Porterface84]

Hi. I’ve put an offer on a 3 bed house with an occasional room. The current seller didn’t convert the loft the previous owner did and they haven’t got any building regulations. I can see there’s no smoke alarms in the whole house and the loft doesn’t have a fire door nor the first floor doors. The room is a pretty big space and they are using it as a bedroom (but not marketed as 4 beds)
It has x2 velux on one side and x2 dormers the other side and central heating. Do I need to push this issue further? I really like the house so it’s a tough decision. I have paid for a level 2 survey but I’ve not done this before so not sure what the survey will say.

You’d be best taking a proper surveyor or architect - they will tell you if it’s safe. Well will know more than a builder and spark.

Does anyone know how a structural engineer would assess the loft? I’m not sure the seller will agree to it if they pull up the floor and take bits of the ceiling down. But it seems the best option

If there’s no evidence in the form of photos, plans, calculations etc, a structural engineer will have to have some elements of the structure exposed.

They will need to asses the rafter and joists sizes, centres and spans. Steelwork and bearings will need to be assessed and justified. Many loft conversions require a structural ridge beam. This is common where there is a truss roof (rather than a traditional cut roof) and the triangulation is altered. They will also need to assess the dormers and roof lights to see if they’re adequately constructed and trimmed.

If the vendors are getting the roof regularised with building control (as they should be), a structural engineer will have to do this. Building control will also want further elements exposed so they can see the insulation and ventilation that provides air flow as well as fire stopping.

My sister has just completed on a property (in Scotland) where windows and vents didn’t have building regs and it’s in a conservation area. She required the vendors to obtain retrospective sign off and agreed to retain some money from the sale price until the sign off is complete. The money retained is enough to redo the work and get consent.

do everything through the solicitor

A Structural engineer
Will need to asses the dormer and roof light structure
The rest of the roof will be as it was built
So he’ll need to open up around those areas
He can't assess what he can’t see

Equally building control will need info on structure, insulation, fensa Certs etc.

The seller can’t really be that miffed about it they know there’s no permission or approval

The seller could of course apply for building regs themselves
and confirm permitted development acceptance

Do you think the seller is ‘up to something’, because I think this move a year after buying is quite suspect and wonder if it’s down to this conversion

I honestly wouldn't touch this with a barge pole. The dormers look crap, i can't see that there's head height over the stairs, there's no way it would meet fire safety, and its clearly intended to be used as a room, no insurer will cover anything that happens. You'll also be fucked if you try to sell it in future.

They’ve said they are moving to be closer to family as they moved away from them and now want to be back - I guess I’ll never know.

Once the documents have gone to the solicitors from their purchase of the house it might say more. Or it might not. Obviously the surveyor will be able to tell me more about the house overall just not the finer details of the loft. If the house itself comes back as ok on the report I was thinking of following advice and getting a structural engineer round.

The biggest problem I’ve got is that I don’t want to rent and in this price range there’s not a lot of houses available at all. There’s not many houses in the area for sale anyway as it’s the wrong time of year and I really don’t want to stay living with my husband much longer.

With the survey plus engineer going round I feel this would cover all bases.

If it’s structurally safe after this I can add in the fire safety bits and use it as storage. That would still be 50k cheaper than houses elsewhere at the minute. As long as it’s safe in those respects it might be ok.

They are using it as a room but I wouldn’t be. They have had offers on the house 5k less than what I’ve paid.

I think the surgery plus and engineer would be the best plan

Just to be extra safe
I would check and see if any enforcement actions have been raised by the planners.
Your solicitor should request that from the current owners aswell.

Thank you I’ll check that. Would that show up on the planning applications on the council website as well?

Not if there’s no application
To be safe a written request for information to the Planning Department would be best

Plus a request from the sellers

Alot to unpack here and you really need to push your surveyor to give you as much information as possible (I’m a surveyor and I do this!j

You may well be better to get a level three survey if you’re not getting the right sort of information or confidence in the surveyor. Fire regulations change all the time especially in light of the new building safety regulations which were passed into law in 2023.

Not under applications. There may be sections for Enforcement and Appeals.

Just to update everyone…..

the surveyor report came today. 8 red critical elements and 9 amber. Things such as creaking floors in the loft, structural issues pretty much everywhere including the porch and garden/garage which is rotting. Roof needs redoing along with your chimney stack. Really serious things so I have pulled out.

Could be why they are moving after a year eh.

Creaking floors lulz.

What did they say about the loft conversion? Did they think it was within PD rules, did it conform to building regs?

I’m guessing the people living there didn’t have a survey then.

Surveys generally tell you the roof needs redoing unless it’s new. That doesn’t really mean anything.

It’s the roof, porch is sinking, damp course isn’t very good, windows need resealing, internal upstairs doors are sticking which may be the loft issue. Chimney is leaking. Flashing is blown. Gutters are leaking and not secure to the walls. Driveway and patio issues. Cracks to the ceilings upstairs, issues with the loft flooring and no ventilation. The critical and amber list is really big and it’s not something I want to be dealing with as these are big issues

Any comment on whether the loft conformed to PD or building regs?

No they can’t tell me that as they can’t see

It’s not difficult to figure out from the dimensions and the construction.

But hey, it’s moot at this point which so much else wrong with it.

An “occasional room” almost always means the loft conversion doesn’t meet Building Regulations, usually fire safety (Part B). The lack of smoke alarms and fire doors strongly suggests it was never signed off. Estate agents use the term deliberately so they don’t have to market it as a fourth bedroom.

A Level 2 survey will flag the lack of Building Regs, but it won’t tell you how expensive it is to fix or whether it could be regularised. It will likely say something along the lines of “used as a bedroom but not compliant” and recommend further investigation.

Your options are usually one of these:

1. Accept it as-is
2. Renegotiate
3. Regularisation (only if you love the house)
4. Indemnity insurance - Although this only protects against enforcement action (which is very unlikely after this many years), it does not make the room compliant or safer.

Wait for the survey, then decide whether you love the house enough to either accept it as a 3-bed or budget to fix it properly. If the loft is the main reason you’re buying it, I’d push harder. If it’s a bonus space, it may be fine to live with.
Plenty of people buy houses like this and never have an issue; just go in with your eyes open.

Seems weird they’re selling after a year even if to move near a family they would’ve known that.

The problems that you are having now would be the same that they had when they brought it unless they truly didn’t care.

pit seems very dodgy there’s planning permission for an extension but not a loft and even if 10 years old you always need a fire door in a loft extension my friend has hers done maybe 20 years ago and she needed a fire door honestly I would avoid this house unless you decide to never ever ever ever sell it and go through the same hassles that someone would be buying now that you are.

OP please do not get in touch with the council or building control. They will only tell you what you already know and it may trigger an enforcement against the current owners. It will also prevent anyone taking out indemnity insurance in the future.

Any decent builder will be able to give an opinion on building regs compliance. If it is not compliant the owner (or you) has 3 options

1. Make it compliant and get retrospective certificatation
2. Live with it with and get an indemnity in case the council do take action (subject to you being satisfied on the safety issue). This should cover your costs.
3. Take the room back to being non habitable. This will mean removing stairs.

I would walk away in your circumstances unless you are prepared to take the risk of asking the owner to get retrospective consent. That could take time and may not be successful.

in any case please do not go to building control. It is for the owner to resolve and you could trigger a whole host of issues for them. Including being served with an enforcement notice and having to take the hit on costs without being able to get an indemnity policy.

Also please ignore anyone who says action is unlikely. That may be true for planning consent (I don’t know) but is definitely not true for building regulations.

I think the OP has already stated she has pulled out of the purchase.