Buying a house with an occasional room and no BR

[Porterface84]

Hi. I’ve put an offer on a 3 bed house with an occasional room. The current seller didn’t convert the loft the previous owner did and they haven’t got any building regulations. I can see there’s no smoke alarms in the whole house and the loft doesn’t have a fire door nor the first floor doors. The room is a pretty big space and they are using it as a bedroom (but not marketed as 4 beds)
It has x2 velux on one side and x2 dormers the other side and central heating. Do I need to push this issue further? I really like the house so it’s a tough decision. I have paid for a level 2 survey but I’ve not done this before so not sure what the survey will say.

@FightNight its because the house has been extended up to three stories

Its accepted that people can jump out of a building two stories high
not three
There must be a fire protected route out

I bought a property with a converted loft just like your property, and it didn’t count as an official bedroom due to ceiling height, no fire doors and a terrible staircase. I used it quite happily as an office for 10 years then knocked the whole thing down and had it rebuilt as a legal bedroom with fire doors, compliant staircase, fire alarms etc. cost a fortune at the time, but it added to the value of the house. You can still use it as it is, but it really should have fire alarms etc as otherwise it isn’t that safe. Mine had been converted so badly I had no choice but to knock it down but yours looks much better.

Chimney is still there so looks like that’s on the back wall between the velux. Only estimate I have is 2012-2015 as per google maps

I suspect that an insurer may argue that the presence of the fixed staircase, rather than a loft hatch and ladder, means it is now operating as a habitable space - even if it were just used by you for storage to play safe.

I think you need to speak to your conveyancer, explore retrospective BRegs and also cold call a couple of insurance companies to see how they would likely perceive it - what I wouldn’t do is just assume not using it as a bedroom/playroom means that it won’t be regarded as such - insurance companies can be b’stards over things like this and I would not take the risk as a single mum of there being any way I could be left high and dry in the event of a nasty fire or any other catastrophic event.

It’s like if your teen leaves a window ajar and you get burgled - even if the burglars didn’t enter that way, if they smashed the patio doors in etc, it will still invalidate your insurance if the police notice the open window and mention it on their files. Am not saying don’t proceed, but get your legal bod to make sure everything is covered and that you have done everything to satisfy the T&Cs of any insurance you take out.

When we had a loft conversion done in 2003 we had to have a Velux just above gutter level at the front as our fire escape, so it was at floor level inside (no climbing up to escape) and the fire brigade could rescue you with a ladder from the street. There is no point climbing out of the dormer at the back as the fire brigade couldn't see or reach you unless there is also a road at the back.

Therefore, the picture you have posted of the front roof, showing 2 high Veluxes, wouldn't comply with fire regs.

It does if there’s a compartmentalised escape within the property. ie unobstructed access to an external door with internal fire rated doors etc

Thanks everyone. I’ve left a note for the solicitor about it so that should be picked up this week. There’s another house close by which is quite nice so I’ve requested to view it to keep my options open.

you’ve all been so helpful thank you so much

I think that's really sensible to see what else there is available.

I've been in a similar situation with a house I was buying post divorce. I fell in love with it, as did my kids but then it turned out roof works they had done recently didn't have plannig permission or building regs sign off and my surveyor was worried about the structural integrity of what had been done. He essentially said it might be fine, or in high winds it could sheer and you lose half the roof.

Knowing there was an issue and not sorting it would have invalidated any home insurance, I couldn't afford a whole house reroof and the sellers solicitor and mine just tried to push for an indemnity policy, so with a very heavy heart I pulled out. I've now found a lovely bungalow to buy, very different to they last house but we all love it and it was a little cheaper which is a bonus. Hopefully the purchase will complete next month.

I agree that buying a house post divorce that meets yours and your children's needs can seem a lot more stressful than the actual divorce or seperation. Hopefully you can either find something else you like as much or the seller may agree to come down in price to allow you to get the work done to get the work to meet current regulations.

Sorry, I thought you said your daughter was desperate to sleep there, perhaps you meant a different room!

I’d walk away though. It’s heartbreaking, stressful and depressing to buy a house riddled with someone else’s errors.

No you’ve read it right my daughter is desperate to sleep there but I’ve told her as it stands she can’t.

Absolutely agree it would be really anxiety provoking wondering if the roof is likely to fall down at any point.

The surveyor is going on 19.12, I’ve called them and the estate agent about the concerns so will see what they come back and say.

19th? Where are you? Can’t you get someone quicker than that?

Sheffield . I don’t know if this is a date the seller has proposed

I find it inconceivable that the current vendor’s solicitor didn’t question all this during their purchase. Something seems really off.

Couldn’t you just cancel the survey and ask them to wait and survey your next choice seeing as they have your money?

So I’ve done some digging. The estate agent queried it and the seller does have indemnity and documents related to their purchase and they are going to send it to their solicitors.

I went and knocked on the neighbours door and she was really helpful. Said the previous owner initially told her they needed planning development and then came back and said it was PD. Scaffolding and builders were in for ages and it was 2014.

I am going to go ahead with the survey and see what comes back.

Remember the estate agent works for the seller not you. The best to advise you is your solicitor.

We have a loft conversion. Every single door in the house had to be changed to fire doors. We did not need planning permission (dormers at the back) but building inspector had to sign it all off. He made us put in an extra hand rail on the top set of stairs for safety. Doors are easily sorted and you can pay for the inspector . I would have thought the solicitor and surveys would pick up these issues though.

I’ll come back with an update once the survey has been done and let you know what’s been said.

If I bought that house I would put right the fire risk issues etc. Those regs exist for a reason.

Do all the other rooms have fire doors and an escape route? Ours don’t. We used to have a conversion like this, used it as a guest room/office. An occasional room just means that it can’t legally be classed as a room, but doesn’t mean you can’t use it as one. The insulation will be more of an issue for building regs as you don’t know what’s been done. We never bothered getting it to standard as it was an old house so it was no different to any other room insulation/fire wise. But, we are both engineers/architects so were comfortable in our decision.

It does seem too big for PD

A. surveyor cannot pick up on whether a building has been built to the regs.
That’s not their remit
So you’ll still need confirmation that the structure and construction complies
and that there is a fire protected route out of the building
If the route goes through or past a kitchen ( that doesn’t have a door and enclosure to the exit) it’s not a safe route. A kitchen is the most dangerous room in a property

So it sounds like the seller relied on an indemnity policy when they purchase which suggests that the people who originally did the conversion didn’t get Building Regs sign-off.

You will have to consider whether you are happy to do the same.

If the conversion is on the third floor you must now have a safe route out.

Older houses with existing third floors don’t have to comply because the building regs didn’t require it.
If someone was to use the space as a bedroom and there was a fire ( causing death ) the owners could be tried for gross negligence manslaughter

So my plan is to have the survey and see if the seller will let me pop round with a builder and electrician we have used before. Then I can get a gist of how to make it safe. But not safe for sleeping as I would not use it as a bedroom but just storage. But even for storage I’d still want wired in smoke alarms in the whole house so need to check this cost.

@Porterface84

A couple of pointers for you.

Remember, don't let your heart rule your head. Best advice I was given about property transactions, as a lay person not an investor, is to always remember this is the biggest asset and biggest investment you're likely to ever make and so therefore, you must be totally on top of the commitment and fully clued up on everything about it. What you need to know, is if I had to liquidate this investment in a heartbeat, could I do that?

If this property isn't compliant, then NO, you couldn't do that. The current estate agent and current vendor will tell you anything in order to make any of their problems shift to being your problems.

You really need to familiarise yourself with what permitted development means to this council, what planning permission is and crucially, all about building regulations approval.

I'm not up to date, but it used to be that you could apply for planning permission on land you don't even own, it's a theoretical thing. I was granted planning permission on an application with a set of drawings that my builder said just wasn't physically possible to carry through. Long story to do with roof lines.

But, without Building Regulations approval and sign off, any development is worthless. This is what you need to focus on most IMO. Often it costs more to renovate than to start from scratch.

Someone more up to date will come along and correct me where necessary, but I believe you should put your attention on to the current BR which will cover fire safety and so forth, as it's very clear that the development isn't compliant. It may have been a permitted development, but essentially it was never signed off as safe and legal and therefore, by definition, saleable.

I'm saying, those changes can cost an awful lot more than you'd anticipate and could be a super massive headache for you.

It's clear you love and want this house, but please be super careful.

You don’t decide it’s safe for the insurance - the building changes have to make sure it conforms to building regs or you’ll have no insurance. I wouldn’t touch this. There are fire safely issues and potential structural issues from the size of that dormer. A builder could tell you anything.