Who owns the outbuilding? Help!!!

[Propertyadvice99]

Morning mumnetters

I'm seeking some advice from the collective wisdom of Mumsnet. I also want to sense check that I'm not going mad. I'll try to get as much info as possible in the opening post so strap yourselves in.

We (partner and I) purchased a Victorian semi detached house a few years ago. It's a standard Victorian layout with 2 reception rooms and kitchen at the back. It's the third Victorian semi that I've owned and they've all had a brick outhouse to the rear of the kitchen. In the other properties it was attached to the house. In this one it is a few feet from the house. The outhouse in this property (as with the others) is attached to an outhouse in our attached neighbour's property. So far so good - standard Victorian set-up.

Once we moved in we had a look in the outhouse (it is accessed through a door which faces the back of our house) and noticed that the rear half was bricked up. We thought that was odd but these are old houses so didn't think much too it and planned to open it up at some point for extra storage.

A few months later and I was collecting a ball from our attached neighbour's garden (with their permission) and saw that the rear of their outhouse had been opened up to give them access to what we thought was our property.

Checked the deeds and the boundary line goes straight down the garden following the fence and the ridge line of the outbuilding roof. What they accessing is clearly in our garden.

We mentioned it a couple of times but we had a baby they had 4 babies(!) and we didn't want to bother then as we know what a stressful time it is.

Our new year's resolution was to get it sorted as we think it could be a problem if we wanted to sell in the future as any potential buyers might want to knock down or renovate the outbuildings.

I sent out neighbour a very nice message asking for a chat about it and got a very snotty message back. They claim that the outhouses have always been this way and refuse to discuss further.

Sone further info:

• I have downloaded their deeds from land registry and they show the same as ours - a straight boundary line.
• the land registry deeds do not show the outhouses.
• their is no record of boundary changes or easements etc giving them right to access.
• the outhouse has a tiled roof. If tiles came off on the bit that they claim they own they would have to access our property to undertake repairs.
• the bricks that have been used to block up the side look newer than the bricks used to build the outhouse and the grout looks more recent - suggesting that the outhouse was not built like this.
• the properties were under common ownership at some point in the past (but not for decades).

My thinking is that we right them a letter explaining that it is on our property according to the deeds and giving them a deadline to demonstrate that they have legal ownership. If they don't do this then we will look to reinstate the boundary (i.e. unblock our side and brick up theirs). Or invite them to remove the part which is in our garden and rebuild on their own property.

Does this sound reasonable? Has anyone experienced something similar and been able to resolve without an expensive and stressful legal dispute?

I know that diagrams are like catnip to Mumsnet users so I'll attach below.

You need to post the actual title plan from deeds

did your surveyor look in there when you purchased?

Your neighbours obviously know they’re in the wrong with their response to you first asking to discuss it.
have you spoken to the previous owners of your property?
have you spoken to the council?
I think I’d insist on requesting a discussion about it, on the pretext that you’re looking at building an extension in replacement of the outbuilding.
get some builders round so they can see you speaking to someone about it.
it seems incredibly odd for them to ‘own’ a piece of your garden!

@drowninginsick do you mean these?

Perhaps when it was 'under common ownership' that person re-organised the outbuildings, the current format was how the neighbours purchased it and the solicitors missed it/or the survey missed the access.

It is yours by the look of the land registry plan.

They claim that the outhouses have always been this way and refuse to discuss further.

This might be because it was done by a previous owner. These neighbours might genuinely believe it's theirs as it's been like that since they bought the house.

Yep they show pretty clearly it's yours. Is anything written about shared access or giving them rights? Other than that I can't see why they think it's yours

I mean I can't see why they think it's theirs!

It might have been done by agreement between past owners and now no one knows the precise history.

It would be unlikely that your neighbours do 'own' that square of land in your garden. If it's not on the Land Registry records then they don't.

There is adverse possession of land but the 'squatter' has to apply to the Land Registry and approval isn't granted automatically.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/adverse-possession-of-registered-land/practice-guide-4-adverse-possession-of-registered-land

Our house used to own a chunk of the outhouse in next doors garden, originally would have been outside loos I think. The owner prior to us sold it for a nominal sum to make the boundary straight. It wouldn't be completely off the wall for them to own it but I would expect it to be in the deeds at some point if they go back far enough

How big are the outhouses? Seems a bit of an odd thing to do for not much space. Could they be using it as a utility room or some such and maybe have a washing machine/tumble drier out there?

From what you’ve written I’d say they know it’s wrong and are going to humph about changing it. Someone has gone to a lot of effort to knock down half a wall (they’re lucky the whole building didn’t fall down) then rebuild it in a different place. How long have they owned the property for?

Are there similar style of properties along the street? If it’s a row of semis then you’d probably all have similar designs for outhouses. Victorian developers work in the same way as our ones, cheaper to replicate the same design rather than doing custom outhouses on arch house! Maybe ask neighbours to see the layout in their outhouses.

If you do get to the point of taking the wall down, if you don’t know what’s on the other side do take care as you may end up with a bill for their “damaged property”.

They are being Outhouse CF!

Thanks so much for all the replies. It's long been an aspiration of mine to have a Mumsnet diagram!
We're not very confrontational people and desperately wanted to avoid a dispute so have let this go on for too.
I am concerned that the longer we leave it the more difficult it would be to challenge l.

You need to speak to the solicitor who dealt with your purchase.
The seller should have disclosed this arrangement as part of the due diligence process.
There is a risk that they could claim adverse possession depending on how long they have been in occupation etc.
If you have a mortgage, it would also be relevant to your lender as what they think they have as security may not be what they actually have, and it could affect value.
You need legal advice on this, don’t try to resolve it yourself.

I would just take it back. As far as. I'm concerned it would be my property that I own and I don't need their permission to with it what I please.

I think that @SoupDragon is right and they do think that it's there's as I'm sure it was in place when they purchased the house (about 10 years ago).

@Lolapusht - my thoughts exactly. It's really not much space maybe 4sq feet if that. They are just using it to store garden toys and equipment as far as I'm aware.
I assumed they would want to sort it out as it's not adding any value to their property and a boundary dispute is only going up reduce the value and cause stress.
We're not overly bothered about the space we must don't like the complication of it and want it sorting.

Unfortunately it wasn't picked up by us when we viewed, the surveyor, solicitor or declared by the sellers. I think the sellers were a bit naughty as they declared on their legal forms that there had been no boundary changes to the best of their knowledge.

Then it likely falls outside the 12 years so it's now theirs probably by adverse possession

It obviously used to be yours but that could have been decades ago

I had a brick wall in an outhouse once and I thought it was pretty new looking but it was 70 years old! Being indoor it protects it so much from weathering it looks brand new

I've poured over the deeds and there are no easements or other rights conferred to next door and I think that this would have been picked up by our conveyancer. She is a friend and was very on the ball and would have questioned it if we'd been aware when purchasing.

Hasn't the law changed? It recently moved on from the 12 years position for registered land to make it far harder to claim 'squatters rights'

Get on to a solicitor Asap op this is going to make it harder to sell your house if the next person is a bit more eagle eyed and spots it

@LaurieFairyCake I thought you had to make a claim for adverse possession? They haven't done that and we would object to a claim.

Then it likely falls outside the 12 years so it's now theirs probably by adverse possession

That's not quite how it works... You think once you've stolen occupied property for 12 years it becomes yours by default?

They have an obligation to disclose it, assuming your solicitor raised the usual enquiries. You need to speak to your solicitor asap.

It will potentially cause a problem when you come to tell your property if you don’t resolve it properly.

-It's yours
-They knows it's yours if they have any reasonable level of intelligence

• They should honour the boundary and not be CF
• Why are people like this in UK about boundaries.
• Just be honest and humble