Who owns the outbuilding? Help!!!

[Propertyadvice99]

Morning mumnetters

I'm seeking some advice from the collective wisdom of Mumsnet. I also want to sense check that I'm not going mad. I'll try to get as much info as possible in the opening post so strap yourselves in.

We (partner and I) purchased a Victorian semi detached house a few years ago. It's a standard Victorian layout with 2 reception rooms and kitchen at the back. It's the third Victorian semi that I've owned and they've all had a brick outhouse to the rear of the kitchen. In the other properties it was attached to the house. In this one it is a few feet from the house. The outhouse in this property (as with the others) is attached to an outhouse in our attached neighbour's property. So far so good - standard Victorian set-up.

Once we moved in we had a look in the outhouse (it is accessed through a door which faces the back of our house) and noticed that the rear half was bricked up. We thought that was odd but these are old houses so didn't think much too it and planned to open it up at some point for extra storage.

A few months later and I was collecting a ball from our attached neighbour's garden (with their permission) and saw that the rear of their outhouse had been opened up to give them access to what we thought was our property.

Checked the deeds and the boundary line goes straight down the garden following the fence and the ridge line of the outbuilding roof. What they accessing is clearly in our garden.

We mentioned it a couple of times but we had a baby they had 4 babies(!) and we didn't want to bother then as we know what a stressful time it is.

Our new year's resolution was to get it sorted as we think it could be a problem if we wanted to sell in the future as any potential buyers might want to knock down or renovate the outbuildings.

I sent out neighbour a very nice message asking for a chat about it and got a very snotty message back. They claim that the outhouses have always been this way and refuse to discuss further.

Sone further info:

• I have downloaded their deeds from land registry and they show the same as ours - a straight boundary line.
• the land registry deeds do not show the outhouses.
• their is no record of boundary changes or easements etc giving them right to access.
• the outhouse has a tiled roof. If tiles came off on the bit that they claim they own they would have to access our property to undertake repairs.
• the bricks that have been used to block up the side look newer than the bricks used to build the outhouse and the grout looks more recent - suggesting that the outhouse was not built like this.
• the properties were under common ownership at some point in the past (but not for decades).

My thinking is that we right them a letter explaining that it is on our property according to the deeds and giving them a deadline to demonstrate that they have legal ownership. If they don't do this then we will look to reinstate the boundary (i.e. unblock our side and brick up theirs). Or invite them to remove the part which is in our garden and rebuild on their own property.

Does this sound reasonable? Has anyone experienced something similar and been able to resolve without an expensive and stressful legal dispute?

I know that diagrams are like catnip to Mumsnet users so I'll attach below.

@PepeParapluie - thanks! Interesting you suggested that as my partner wondered if there might be something in the archives. It's reassuring that you think the onus would be on our neighbours to collect that information.

It could be theirs by adverse possession law if they’ve been using it for 12 years without any objection from the owner.

My thinking is that if your deeds show a straight line, it’s for them to provide evidence that the boundary is not in fact a straight line for whatever reason.

But it’s just some thoughts! Obviously the way to be sure is to get legal advice from someone who can review all the relevant deeds etc and who is a lawyer - please don’t mistake my comments for gospel or a substitute for that! No one can really tell you without a thorough review of the deeds.

@RabbitsEatPancakes - your post made me laugh!! 4 babies! At one point they had 4 aged 5 and under. Every time we braced ourselves to discuss it with them we found out they were expecting (again) and didn't want to give them extra stress during pregnancy.

I'm assuming that they've completed their family now. If not they'll probably need a bigger house or an extension and that might help to resolve things!

In that picture of the external, longer brick wall, the area about 2-3 feet from the far end - do you think the bricks there are where the loo door once was? As they look a bit different to the rest of the wall.

edited to say: I just realised maybe that's what you meant by this in the OP: "the bricks that have been used to block up the side look newer than the bricks used to build the outhouse and the grout looks more recent".

@Murpe you an eagle eyed genius!! I've never spotted that. If you look carefully you can see that there is a door shaped outline in the bricks where it's been bricked up (I've attached a photo with outline - you have to look carefully as it was clearly done some time ago).
I'd always assumed that it only had one door - which is unusual for a Victorian outbuilding as they are normally split in 2.
This shows that at some point in the past it was accessed from our garden!

@Murpe in the bit you quoted I was talking about the bricks inside the outhouse. You've just spotted something we've never seen before. Although I just showed this to my partner who said - yeah I always wondered about that.....

Haha, I was literally about to post my marked-up picture of that, @Propertyadvice99! Here it is anyway!

Something has been bricked up there in the past for sure.

ETA: are there any other houses in the road with similar shared sheds, and might any of them still have an outside door like that? If there’s any way to find out….not sure how you could explain why you’re asking to look at their sheds!

Other than the fact it would cost money not only to submit, but to draw up plans, I'd almost be tempted to submit a planning application to the council to put an extension where the outbuilding is! I'm sure they'd have something to say about it then and it would certainly force the issue!

I was also going to suggest Zoopla or Rightmove historic prices, not only for their own property listing, but to see if the historic listing is available with a floorplan. If it is, download / screenprint what you can.

I agree with sending them a letter now, perhaps with the help of your conveyancing solicitor friend, to set out that although nothing was previously identified by the surveyors during the conveyancing process, it appears that their claim to the rear of the outbuilding has never been formalised and that you consider the property yours.

If you're not bothered about it in the meantime, and they want to keep using it, you could always have a rent agreement with them for it, even if that rent is a "peppercorn". You're both then acknowledging that the property is yours, but they get continued use of it until such a time as they (or you) want to sell it.

They're being cheeky. I can't believe you've never spotted the change in brickwork. I thought that was a given from the picture!

The bother thing to confirm if you can I’s that the outhouses in all of the neighbouring houses are all equally split down the middle. I mean I'm pretty sure they will be as it's such a common design but it would despatch with the "forever" argument.

Last thing, it's a bit a blunt tool, but if you've sent a formal letter (get a solicitor to do it) requesting removal of their property from you land, would be that if they do come to sell, YOU can notify their estate agent of the issue. A shonky estate agent might ignore it and leave it to conveyancing to pick up but a half decent one would just tell the to bloody sort it.

@Propertyadvice99 That's quite a hefty chunk of your outhouse they have possesion of.
If you took back your half and put glass doors on the side it would make a gorgeous Summer House / Play house for you and your child/ren.

I would ask them again for a discussion about it and if they decline then send a letter saying you will be taking back the access to your land.

have you also downloaded the neighbour's deeds?
if they also show the clear boundary them ask them to clear the shed within a reasonable time frame.

@bloodredfeaturewall yes! I downloaded their deeds from land registry and it shows the same as ours. No outbuildings and a straight line down the boundary.

@Elboob - we have thought that it would be nice to do something with it - maybe open it up and have a brick BBQ/wood store. Of course when we bought the house we assumed that it was ours. It shows how important it is to check absolutely everything. But come to think of it I'm almost certain that there was a padlock on it when he did the viewing.

Did the estate agents' details of the house you now own have anything about the outbuilding on it? Do you know which agents sold the house prior to that, or the one next door? Could they have the details archived? It's a long shot but sometimes searching for the address on one of the house move websites brings up details of previous sales which include older photos too.

Any details of others similar houses sold on the road that you can see online - they might have garden photos which show an unchanged outhouse (with a door where yours was removed)

That's a good idea! There are a few different types of Victorian footprint round here but there's definitely some that look to be the same layout and I know some of the neighbours so I'm sure they won't mind me doing some detective work.

So much of this discussion is red herrings!

The only thing that is relevant is who actually owns what and that is not a matter of guesswork, or 2010 estate agent plans, or dotted lines or take-back-what-you-own or knock it down or he said/she said! Agreements made decades ago, but which never made it into LR documentation, quite possibly still hold sway as legal obligations.

Owning the land upon which the outbuilding stands is not in dispute BUT the neighbours may have an entitlement to keep and access that part of the outhouse that OP believes to belong to her. A pp mentioned flying freeholds and that is also relevant inasmuch as all sorts of property anomolies arose in years gone by, BUT those oddities are still in existence and still pursuable in law.

It seems to me, and also to several others who have commented in this thread, that the only sensible way forward is to seek URGENT and SOLID legal advice.

I survived a ludicrous boundary dispute with a demented elderly neighbour and fully agree that it is misery making which is why I counsel caution.

I'm going to go against the majority on this one.

The house and out building are over 100 years old. The internal brickwork in question looks to have been completed in about the 1930's. The owners at the time are long gone, and who can say what they agreed almost 90 years ago. All of this was probably agreed long before 99% of people on this forum were even born! It looks like at some point almost a centaury ago the 10x previous owners of your house gave/sold the back of their outhouse to your 10x previous neighbours and agreed for a new partition wall to be built.

I'm afraid I think your just going to suck it up, the time to have noticed this was before you bought the house. Starting a boundary dispute and all the ridiculous 'threats' posters have suggested on the thread will serve nobody.... apart from lawyers.....Just move on...

The internal brickwork in question looks to have been completed in about the 1930's.

How can you tell?

It could be that historically the building was accessed from the side, and your house had a strip that ran across their land, and they had a strip (in front or behind) that ran across yours. Then at some point, the neighbour or previous owners of their house have nabbed the bit on their land, if that makes sense? Either way, in your position I would write them a polite but firm letter stating that you will be having the wall removed and resited on X date, and to please have their possessions removed by that time. Good luck with it.

I seriously could not get this worked up over a bit of an outhouse. They most likely bought it likely this and are not CF at all. By all means wade in with your solicitors letters but is it really worth the cost and the damage to your relationship with your neighbours over a bit of an outhouse? You didn't even notice yourselves when viewing it.

From the style of the bricks and when that style was common.
From the fact it is brick not an older or newer construction type.
From the shrinkage cracks in the mortar.
From the level of wear on the surface compared to a brand new wall and the original Victorian wall on the right.

The wall took a couple/few days to build and who ever built it had access to both side when building it.

Also I can't see a bricked up external door. There is a no evidence of a previous door frame or lintel, just a couple of broken bricks that happen to line up. There is a bit of shrinkage/movement in the structure. There is a single course black bricks across the area matching the rest of the wall. If it was being bricked up whoever did it would most likely not have access to identical matched bricks, or be bothered to match.

Whoever built the wall did it many decades ago, most likely with the knowledge, agreement, maybe ever help of both parties.

you could have a poke about on some historic mapping but i doubt any would show the division of the outhouses. always a fun way to waste a bit of time though