Who owns the outbuilding? Help!!!

[Propertyadvice99]

Morning mumnetters

I'm seeking some advice from the collective wisdom of Mumsnet. I also want to sense check that I'm not going mad. I'll try to get as much info as possible in the opening post so strap yourselves in.

We (partner and I) purchased a Victorian semi detached house a few years ago. It's a standard Victorian layout with 2 reception rooms and kitchen at the back. It's the third Victorian semi that I've owned and they've all had a brick outhouse to the rear of the kitchen. In the other properties it was attached to the house. In this one it is a few feet from the house. The outhouse in this property (as with the others) is attached to an outhouse in our attached neighbour's property. So far so good - standard Victorian set-up.

Once we moved in we had a look in the outhouse (it is accessed through a door which faces the back of our house) and noticed that the rear half was bricked up. We thought that was odd but these are old houses so didn't think much too it and planned to open it up at some point for extra storage.

A few months later and I was collecting a ball from our attached neighbour's garden (with their permission) and saw that the rear of their outhouse had been opened up to give them access to what we thought was our property.

Checked the deeds and the boundary line goes straight down the garden following the fence and the ridge line of the outbuilding roof. What they accessing is clearly in our garden.

We mentioned it a couple of times but we had a baby they had 4 babies(!) and we didn't want to bother then as we know what a stressful time it is.

Our new year's resolution was to get it sorted as we think it could be a problem if we wanted to sell in the future as any potential buyers might want to knock down or renovate the outbuildings.

I sent out neighbour a very nice message asking for a chat about it and got a very snotty message back. They claim that the outhouses have always been this way and refuse to discuss further.

Sone further info:

• I have downloaded their deeds from land registry and they show the same as ours - a straight boundary line.
• the land registry deeds do not show the outhouses.
• their is no record of boundary changes or easements etc giving them right to access.
• the outhouse has a tiled roof. If tiles came off on the bit that they claim they own they would have to access our property to undertake repairs.
• the bricks that have been used to block up the side look newer than the bricks used to build the outhouse and the grout looks more recent - suggesting that the outhouse was not built like this.
• the properties were under common ownership at some point in the past (but not for decades).

My thinking is that we right them a letter explaining that it is on our property according to the deeds and giving them a deadline to demonstrate that they have legal ownership. If they don't do this then we will look to reinstate the boundary (i.e. unblock our side and brick up theirs). Or invite them to remove the part which is in our garden and rebuild on their own property.

Does this sound reasonable? Has anyone experienced something similar and been able to resolve without an expensive and stressful legal dispute?

I know that diagrams are like catnip to Mumsnet users so I'll attach below.

Thanks. This was the message from the neighbour. I was a bit annoyed as I think it's presumptuous to say that they don't forsee any problem with selling in the future! And how on earth do they know that was how they were built. It would be really unusual IME and everyone who we tell about it is completely perplexed by the set up.

I would tell them that you may be looking to knock down the outhouse on your side and therefore need to get this sorted from a legal perspective now, as the part they are using is on your land

I'm afraid you need legal advice on it. Of course your neighbours don't know that this has been the arrangement for as long as the house has stood as they haven't owned the property for that long. Also you can see a door that was bricked up.

It's also nonsense that this would not give any potential resale issues. You have an issue with it now.

Tell them you're knocking the outhouse down on your land. Quite frankly, I actually would knock it down, seems like the easiest way to solve a potentially lengthy and costly boundary dispute. It's on your land, take it down. Return their possessions, brick the wall up "make it right." Done.

@Lolapusht outhouse CF - I love it 😂😂. The CF threads are always my faves - now I have one of own.

This is EXACTLY what I've been saying to my DH, having read out the whole thing to him. Knock down everything on your land, whack up a fence or wall, chuck their possessions over the fence into their garden.
They have absolutely no leg to stand on and their attitude of not being willing to discuss it would make me furious. If they would discuss it I'd be completely different, talk it through, get legal advice whatever. But the no discussion thing would just make me think - no discussion, ok I'll just do the thing that brings about the correct outcome then.
Do it when they're away for a weekend. CFs. You've defo got your own CFs there OP! 😂

I'd tell them there's nothing in your deeds to prove the sale of the land, so you'd appreciate it if they provide evidence of the contract or plan that was agreed at the time.

Do you know if any of your new neighbours have lived in the road for a very long time. Just wondering if any of them have any knowledge of it and what was agreed

Well OP they may not see any issues but unless they are solicitors who deal with property or work for the land registry that's easy for them to say. If you were feeling cantankerous you could ask them for proof it had been that way since the houses were built and any evidence it's never been an issue to all the sets of owners since then.

When my purchasers insisted I get an odd anomaly on my deeds sorted the Land Registry sent a bod from Ordnance Survey with a GPS thingy and took pictures of me opening my gate and shed! The LR also checked my neighbours were happy with me keeping the bottom of my yard.

It may be a few years since you purchased but this is down to your vendors not being truthful - though they may plead ignorance, so certainly speak to the solicitor who handled your purchase.

You could suggest it needs sorting at the request of your mortgage company to appease your neighbour - it's not that we mind but the bank insist blah blah

Another vote to knock it down

And livestream it so we can watch

For heaven's sake, don't knock it down! It isn't yet proven to be yours irrespective of what lines exist on your paperwork. They may well own it from occupation, use or informal gift decades ago in which case you open yourself up to a charge of criminal damage and your polite note is incontrovertible evidence that you knew there was doubt as to the true position.

Your sellers may well have been truthful when they stated they knew of no alteration to the line of the boundary if the 'takeover' happened 80 or 90 years ago. In your shoes, I'd be seeking legal advice urgently perhaps under your home insurance.

Boundary disputes are a nightmare, expensive and unbelievably stressful. Tread carefully. Good luck.

We had an issue buying our new build mid terrace as we had an outhouse for bins and bike storage on the neighbours land. The end house had sold first and they hadn't marked our ownership on the plans so it did need to go back through the land registry and be updated.
So agree, they are CF and trying it on.

I assume it is an outside loo? Are there two separate sections internally. Could you stick another diagram on please with where the doors are and how it is subdivided inside and where the new bricked up bit is? Does your door just open into the bottom left hand quarter and is that walled off separately?

Isn’t there a clause or something that if it’s been that way for 10 years of more it is now theirs??? I’m sure this happened with a wall in our last house.

Previous owners of your property may well have been being honest here. They were not aware of any boundary changes, because the boundary hasn't been changed in their time. If they weren't bothered by this redivision of the outhouse, they possibly didn't consider it as a boundary change. It doesn't mean they were right.

If your conveyancer was/is a friend, go back to them and ask the questions now.

Honestly you're damned if you do and damned if you don't here.... If you want to pursue it you will need to involve- at the least- a boundary surveyor and a solicitor to amend in your favour. It will be hard to maintain a good relationship with your neighbors while doing this I imagine. If you ignore it but choose to sell up, this could become an issue for your buyer. Start by going to your conveyancer for advice, if they're half decent they can suggest what you do next. It's probably unlikely to be productive to go after the neighbours or previous owners for costs.

Then again, the neighbour's might be lovely about it and it's all a misunderstanding. Or, your onwards buyer might not care (many would, many wouldn't).

Realistically expect expense and hassle and your neighbours to not be happy about it.

Thanks everyone!! There's some great advice on here.
Honestly it doesn't really bother us on a day to day basis. I just wanted to get it resolved as it could put off future buyers who might want to take it down to extend or have some extra garden.
If we could have sat down with the neighbours to talk it through that would have been much better but the haughty reply has got my back up.
We're not looking to move anytime soon (so it's not an immediate issue) but I feel like the longer it goes on the more difficult it will be ho resolve
I also don't really understand why our neighbours are so possessive about it. Surely a boundary dispute more than outweighs a bit of extra outside storage?

They did mention that they were thinking about moving last year and my partner pointed out the problem again at that time. Part of me is thinking it might be worth holding out and hoping that they want to resolve it in advance of putting theirs on the market.

@Geneticsbunny - I think it was almost certainly an outside loo. The other Victorian houses I've lived in have usually been divided into 2 halves part for a toilet and the other for storage (coal?)
It's only the bottom left hand side that we have access to and this is through a door with the rear section being bricked up.
Would some photos help?

I would desperately hate a dispute. It makes life a nightmare. I've had problem neighbours once before and it was miserable. I thought that ours were a lovely quiet family and we've always gotten along well so resolving amicably would be the ideal solution.

It seems pretty clearly yours as far as I can see. If the boundary line goes straight down the middle on the deeds, then it's clearly a structure on your property and I can't see how the neighbours could ever reasonably claim otherwise.
I think I'd just take the wall down and block access from their side. Let them take it to court and boundary disputes etc if they want to - there's no need for you to beg them to give you your own land back.

Your neighbours may well be thinking exactly the same about "a bit of extra storage space"!

Unfortunately, it looks as though you have opened Pandora's box since you can no longer state that you are ignorant of the problem. When the respective mortgage companies are informed or find out, there are likely to be some unpleasant ramifications.

I note that the outhouse is not shown on the official paperwork and in that case, unless the respective conveyancers actually visited the properties or were informed of their existence, it's hard to blame them for not spotting a potential problem.

I think you are wise to want to resolve the issue. Good luck.

Photos attached!

This is the outhouse. It's clearly all in our garden but the rear half is blocked up and being used by next door.
The red door is how we access our side.
The third photo is if the inside. The bricks that have been used to partition the back look newer to me?

It's not very clear with the tree in the way but you can see the fence panel behind which divided the 2 properties. That was put in by the previous when our neighbours were living in their property so I'm assuming that was agreed to be the boundary line.

Hi OP, there’s a bit of misinformation on the thread about adverse possession so thought I’d just share the Land Registry guide about it. It’s aimed at solicitors but might help you get a bit of an understanding of what the process of adverse possession is
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/adverse-possession-of-registered-land/practice-guide-4-adverse-possession-of-registered-land

As you’ve said, they would need to make an application to have it registered to them - it looks like legally the title is still with you even if there was some arrangement or agreement between prior owners. You would have a chance to object if they applied to be registered as owners if that bit. If you did, they’d have to make out one of 3 conditions as set out in the guide. That can be quite hard to do in some circumstances.

There was a different regime prior to 2003. Before 2003, a squatter who could show they had been treating the land as their own for at least 12 years was entitled to be registered as its owner. I.e 12 years’ possession was enough by itself to claim ownership of land. If the neighbours could show 12 years’ possession of the outbuilding prior to 2003, then they could potentially claim on that basis BUT this is complicated and they might struggle to prove it if they haven’t lived in the property for a very long time. It’s a pretty specialist kind of thing so they’d almost certainly need legal advice to do it (and you’d probably be sensible to get your own advice to resist any form of application they make too).

If you think the neighbours are looking to sell soon, then writing a letter now might not be a bad idea as it’ll be something they’d struggle not to disclose in their replies to enquiries. Chats about it etc they can pretend didn’t happen, but it’d be very risky to lie about an actual letter disputing the boundary. On that basis it might force them to sort it out to avoid issues with a sale.