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Original poster

Who is liable? Load bearing demolished accidentally

76 replies

Millypip91 · 23/01/2025 01:20

Hi there,

I am having a DIY disaster. We bought a 1930's semi in September. It's a 3 bed with a partially converted loft - loft was boarded and plastered, has electric and windows but was not officially converted with stairs etc. We had all our surveys done before buying and all was well.

We moved in and decided to make a bigger kitchen diner and get the wall between kitchen and dining room knocked through. We did our research and after a few quotes went for a reputable local building company who has their own structural engineers. We were assured by them that the wall was a stud wall and not load bearing so no building regs were required. Long story short they knocked down the wall and a crack appeared almost immediately in the newly decorated bedroom. We also noticed some worsening of hairline cracks in our recently re plastered bedroom ceiling. The builder thought it was just stress fractures and suggested that the ceiling was badly plastered before (by other tradesmen) so recommended plaster boarding and re-doing them. I had a bad gut feeling about this so instead I got a structural engineer to come out and assess the cracks. Unfortunately he informed us that the loft which was partially converted didn't meet building regs and all the previous owner had done was take the supporting beams out without putting extra supports in making the house structurally unsafe. Sadly this was not picked up in any of the surveys we had done. He also said that because of the lack of support in the loft the wall that was knocked down in the kitchen effectively was load bearing even though it appeared not to be. The builders didn't actually go in the loft so they didn't know about this but arguably they still knocked the wall down and told us it was fine so surely some of the blame lies with them. The previous owner did not declare any structural changes to the property so we already may have a case against her but I am wondering if I can pursue anything with the builders? Since it happened they did immediately come and put some beans back in the loft and temporary poles where the wall was up to secure everything but they are still trying to charge us a lot of extras for fixing the damage and I kind of expected that they would give us quite a hefty discount considering that they did knock it down. My other half doesn't seem to want to pursue anything against the builders and is trying to kind of keep them on side whilst they are still doing work and accessing our property but I am getting a bit peed off that they're not really being held accountable. Would love any advice x

OP posts:

Difficultwill · 23/01/2025 03:28

Wow. That is so difficult for you.
I think the survey you had should have picked this up. You may have some recourse to them concerning the loft. Did the surveyor you had when buying your home actually look in the loft. You will need to look back at your survey.
The solicitor should also of picked up that a loft partial extension had been done and at least asked the question about building regs.
Was the house advertised by the estate agent as having a loft extension. If so you may have recourse from them for advertising it wrongly but I bet they worded it as being boarded!
The builders should have been more aware if the surveyor actually came and had a look at your house. Have you agreed a price to fix it? I agree a discount should be in the offing but I understand you want to keep them on your side until the work is done!
I would consider contacting the solicitor who dealt with the house sale for advice.
Good luck

Aliflowers · 23/01/2025 05:23

TBH I cant see how any of the blame lies with the builders/building surveyor if they didnt go into/weren't made aware of change in the loft. They made an assessment/gave a quote based on a non-load bearing wall. They weren't to know someone had done a shoddy job two floors above them

I think the fault lies with the original surveyor who by the sounds of it should have noticed the changes made to the loft space and saw the roof wasn't structurally sound. When we had our attic converted the builders had to insert new wooden beams and ties to replace the ones removed to access the space and we also had two steel beams put in place to support the roof. All of this can is visbible when you access the attic crawl space so not sure why the original surveyor didn't see this.

Was the house sold as having a loft conversion and were you aware of it? How was it handled as part of the sale. Was this checked as part of your purchase survey and what was noted in the survey pack. Im in Ireland so not up to date on UK building regs but a neighbour had trouble selling their house a few years back due to an incorrectly done loft and ended up having to rip it out and redo as every single surveyor at the purchase stage picked up on it

HellsBalls · 23/01/2025 07:26

I also don’t see how the builders are responsible.
It sounds like the loft was advertised as a ‘loft/attic room’. With no stairs and not being advertised as a bedroom, what building regulations are there to be met?
Is the loft room converted right into the corners? Or is there some loft space left that is still accessible? If so maybe the original surveyor should have picked up on it.
So what is the plan now? Install a steel and continue? Sounds like if that was the requirement to knock through the rooms, you would still have continued. What I mean is, now you have the unexpected cost of the steel/fitting, but had that been quoted for originally, you would still have continued with the conversion.

AlwaysLookOnTheSnarkSide · 23/01/2025 07:30

I agree that I don't think it's the builders fault, or their surveyors fault at all. I'd be following this up with the survey people from when you bought the house.

ZimbleFox · 23/01/2025 07:36

I don't know how standard it is, but when we were having a downstairs wall removed they looked in the loft to assess if it was load bearing and what size reinforcement would be needed.

FlyInTheOintmentAgain · 23/01/2025 07:36

I realise I don’t know enough about this to comment. Off to google how load bearing walls are identified.

Dazedandconfused10 · 23/01/2025 07:37

What kind of survey did you have? Homebuyers or structural?

LittleBearPad · 23/01/2025 07:37

What kind of survey did you have when you bought the house. A full structural one or a homebuyer one?

Geneticsbunny · 23/01/2025 07:46

I think this is the responsibility of the structural surveyors that the builder used. They should have taken the entire building into account when they said that the wall was non structural. They should be accredited and insured and should be able to claim this on their insurance.

Whyherewego · 23/01/2025 07:53

If your builder was correct that it was a stud wall and normally not load bearing and the only reason it was in fact load bearing was the loft conversion (which they didnt know about) then I can't see how they are at fault.
When I did internal works my builders did tell me to get a structural engineer before removing any walls. So I don't know if they mentioned that or said it wasn't necessary.

But I think your beef is with the original loft conversion which was not done properly as it rendered the house unsafe if you had a full survey then that surveyor should have picked up on it

shinebrightlikeanemerald · 23/01/2025 08:03

You should have got a structural engineer report for the loft before you bought the house.

The builders are not at fault and they are putting things right.

You have a case against the person you bought the house from and possibly the surveyor.

Get your house made safe asap don’t upset the current builders.

Get the structural engineer back to okay all the new work.

CharityShopChic · 23/01/2025 08:07

i think you need to post this in Legal rather than Property. You will also need to clarify whether you're in England/Wales or Scotland or Northern Ireland as the law is probably different.

rewilded · 23/01/2025 08:14

I think the builders should have checked the attic. Surely that would be the first thing to do before you start work removing any wall? The surveyer should have also flagged this up - this is what you are paying them for.

Copernicus321 · 23/01/2025 08:16

So what you are saying is....

A stud wall that isn't usually load bearing was carrying load because of the removal of structural support in the loft conversion done by another builder.

The builder you employed to remove the stud wall weren't aware of the work undertaken in the loft. Yet you think they should have known that the stud wall was taking load due to the removal of beams in the loft.

You think the builder you employed should take responsibility. Your'e a treasure.

Geneticsbunny · 23/01/2025 08:16

The loft conversion status is irrelevant. The structural surveyors who said the wall can be taken down have ultimate responsibility as they said the wall was safe to remove when it wasn't and it is literally their job to check the structural stability of the property before they say that a wall can come out.

rewilded · 23/01/2025 08:16

The builders are not at fault and they are putting things right.

A sound builder would have a quick check of the attic.

It may be that it would cost you more to pursue this than just get the work sorted.

SnidelyWhiplash · 23/01/2025 08:19

Responsibility for compliance with the building regulations ultimately lies with the building owner.

I’d just get it rectified if I were you.

rewilded · 23/01/2025 08:20

What builder wouldn't have a quick check? Seems pretty basic stuff so why wouldn't they? I'm not a builder but it seems obvious ABC classroon stuff to check no alterations have been made above. You could have tapped the wall and said it is a stud yourself - utter nonsense.

Zampa · 23/01/2025 08:23

We did our research and after a few quotes went for a reputable local building company who has their own structural engineers

Did the builders' structural engineers advise on the work? You may want to consider a claim on their insurance or on your own home policy.

Tallblacktrees · 23/01/2025 08:32

Was the builder's structural engineer chartered? This could help with leverage to claim against the builder (wife of structural engineer)
Structural engineers need to take whole building into account when making their assessments and therefore the engineer in this case did not
When you say you had surveys done when purchasing, was this a full structural survey? Other surveys cannot be expected to pick up the problems wirh the conversion as won't be done by a qualified structural engineer.

MeanMrMustardSeed · 23/01/2025 08:43

Geneticsbunny · 23/01/2025 08:16

This would be my starting point.

hope you can get it sorted and enjoy your new home.

user1471505356 · 23/01/2025 08:47

I do not think it matters who is at fault now, just fix it and pay the cost, it won't break the budget.

Petrine · 23/01/2025 08:49

You got a structural engineer out and he said ‘that because of the lack of support in the loft the wall that was knocked down in the kitchen effectively was load bearing even though it appeared not to be’.

That being the case it cannot be the builder’s fault.

dairydebris · 23/01/2025 08:52

Geneticsbunny · 23/01/2025 07:46

This is the correct answer. The structural surveyor used by the builders is at fault.

LizzieSiddal · 23/01/2025 08:57

We’ve just moved house and we had to have a building regs bit of paper for everything we’d done in our old house plus our Solicitor wanted them for the house we were buying. I don’t understand how you could buy a house and not have building regs for the loft conversion. Your solicitor didn’t do their job properly and your surveryor certainly didn’t. (They should have advised you also to get all building regs for the loft).

Your new builders are awful if they didn’t bother to go and look into the loft before removing a wall under it! That should have been a huge red flag for you.

We’re doing renos now in our house and any builder who has said “you don’t need building regs” has been swiftly crossed off our list.

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